Airborne_Again wrote:
I bet! Where did you find them?
Apologies for not referencing, I thought it was on the page Peter linked to above, but it’s not just so clear if you don’t know where to look:
https://www.easa.europa.eu/document-library/comment-response-documents/crd-2020-02
The LBA, Austrian Airlines, and others, are not happy…
The airlines have a point about the LVO issue and runway incursion risks, but they are also missing a major point – namely that a lot of GA flying takes place at airports where there is no CAT at all. I have only made a takeoff in fog once (600 m viz) and that was at a VFR airfield. Definitely no risk of taxiing into CAT.
There is no risk of taxxing into CAT in 150m, unless you are blind, in which case you won’t have a medical 
The wider point is interesting, because for many years the major stoppers of a more sensible IFR environment (and training) for GA have been airlines and airline unions, along with some CAAs.
It is challenging to depart in ~200m. The “scene” remains spookily unchanging except for the ASI moving up. Then you lift off at X kt and you have to make a very fast transition to the AI. I have done some videos many years back but they could not be published today.
I have done some videos many years back but they could not be published today.
Why? The old videos are always blurry and show lower visibility than it actually was on a day when filmed
Peter wrote:
There is no risk of taxxing into CAT in 150m, unless you are blind, in which case you won’t have a medical
So, I would be in favour of relaxing the rules for NCO to takeoff <400m. However I do see (perhaps bias as it is my day job) the airline point of view a little bit. The chance of a PA28 or similar taxying into an a320 are likely extremely slim. However the chances of a PA28 or similar taxying into a protected area or lining up in the wrong place, or having a runway incursion is, I think, reasonably more probably. We spend a fair amount of time in the sim at work practicing LVO stuff, and this includes all sorts of mitigations using procedures, SOP’s and equipment to reduce/minimise the chances of error, and this simply would not reliably happen in the NCO world. Whilst I agree plenty of times the NCO traffic will be operating from a non-commercial field, it has to be accepted that sometimes the field will be mixed/shared. None of this is helped by the fact that most signage is set up for viewing from a more-elevated-than-GA flight deck, which makes things even harder for the GA pilot in certain instances.
To recap, I would like to see the LVO takeoff rules relaxed, but I can see the argument against allowing it with no further regulation.
Good post, @Pirho. LVO for NCO should definitely be on the table, but additional training would be a good idea. AT LEAST a proper briefing should be done. I remember taxiing around an international airport (3 runways) in a C152. I couldn’t make out all the signs (CAVOK!) just because the taxiway was so large and there was a multitude of guide lines on the pavement.
I don’t think relaxing bellow 400m does anything useful as I don’t see many IFR GA aircraft operating under NCO with takeoff roll less than 200m most GA airfields are not controlled & monitored on the ground with no surface patrols, say someone lazily parked something or tree did fall middle of the runway…
I have only made a takeoff in fog once (600 m viz) and that was at a VFR airfield
Jeez you will get slashed in the other topic for saying that…
I couldn’t make out all the signs (CAVOK!) just because the taxiway was so large and there was a multitude of guide lines on the pavement.
That is a general problem at big airports. Almost everybody gets lost. That’s why I got Garmin Safetaxi
In the IR they teach you something about the markings, I think…
Jeez you will get slashed in the other topic for saying that…
Really?
This is country dependent. In the UK, and probably most countries in Europe, you can depart on an “I” flight plan (and thus by implication under non-VFR conditions) from an airport which has no instrument approaches. Where does Austria stand on that one? I know in Germany you can’t, while in Croatia you can’t if the tower is empty…
The general min vis for an IFR departure in GA is 400m. In the absence of official RVR reporting, this is pilot interpreted. He can just say he lined up on the runway and saw 400m ahead.
Peter wrote:
In the IR they teach you something about the markings, I think…
Yes, but that’s just a catalogue of pretty signs. I’d like to see some real action pictures, like the ones we get when we take the theory test for our driver’s license.
