Ibra wrote:
positive rate of climb, gear up” in some Arrow/
Always! Arrows in particular, though other retractables to a lesser degree can get stuck in ground effect, and not climb. This can be due to too much nose up, and the plane cannot accelerate. Landing back may be an option if the remaining runway is sufficient. Otherwise, there is no reason during a normal takeoff to be retracting the gear before positive rate is established. If you need to raise the gear to get it to climb, you were in a bad spot to begin with!
All I am saying you don’t need VSI>0 to know that you have left the ground and you are not going back, it’s obvious even 4 years old says “woah” when it happens
Some RG aircrafts, don’t even have VSI or IVSI, how they know they have left the ground?
You also press the breaks before retract, so not much risque of retraction while on ground as the aircraft slows down 
I think one should be able to accelerate & climb without raising gear unless operating in +5kft runways or flying an underpowered aircraft very slowly, hopefully pilots operating that way would know what they are doing…
I don’t even look at VSI on IFR takeoffs bellow 400ft agl, I am not even sure what to do with it’s reading? pitch on AI against ASI & HSI with engine power and T&P, only later on when it matters for climb gradients
PS: on the Mooney I could keep gear down on whole climb while the cow become small, on the Arrow I need it up for the cow to become small
Yes, Arrows do benefit from retracting the gear to improved the climb. They are more simple airplanes, not such hot performers.
Whether you actually look and observe a positive rate of climb on the VSI is a little secondary, it’s more that the pilot thinks to themself that the plane actually is climbing before raising the gear prematurely. There have been a few planes which settled back onto their belly for no good reason whatever. If flying a Cessna single RG, that extra 3 feet of ground clearance is good to have too! Some planes (Cessna 210, 310 & 337) have gear doors which open upon retraction, increasing drag, so having reserve altitude and climb capability is good. For the 337, it is in the POH not to retract the gear following an EFATO for that reason. The gear does not need to be snapped up the moment the plane seems off the surface, so “Positive rate, gear up” said in one’s mind (or to the co pilot) offers a little more time to establish that safe climb.
I choose not to apply brakes after takeoff. I have yet to read a POH which instructs this (though maybe some do). My reason is that a fast turning main wheel, with no weight, suddenly stopped risks spinning the tire on the rim (many planes have paint marks so as to make this evident if happened). Spinning the tire on the rim risks shearing the tube’s valve stem = flat tire. ‘Just my preference, they’ll spin down themselves. If they scrub something in the wheel well, it’s likely designed that way…
Pilot_DAR wrote:
If flying a Cessna single RG, that extra 3 feet of ground clearance is good to have too! Some planes (Cessna 210,
Absolutely! In addition to that, in the 210 you lose about 3 kts during gear retraction, that’s why you leave the gear down during marginal departures until well clear of obstacles.
172driver wrote:
in the 210 you lose about 3 kts during gear retraction,
Is true. In addition to that, a 210G I test flew last year, exhibited noticeable airspeed/altitude/VSI (position) error during gear transit. The static port is on the fuselage, behind the gear door, so subject to disturbance. I repeatedly watched the altimeter temporarily display as much as a 200 foot error during transit.
So, overall, I like to be well established in stable flight, preferably a climb, before I retract gear.
Pilot_DAR wrote:
My reason is that a fast turning main wheel, with no weight, suddenly stopped risks spinning the tire on the rim
I think it is the other way round, that without weight there is no reason to believe that the rim could move. When during braking a high braking force is applied I think the risk is much higher that the rim could start moving, in particular with low tire pressure.
But would be interesting to hear if others do share that opinion, because I can freely “stop” braking after takeoffs, no problem… (total gear transit in PA24 is something around 4-6 seconds to retract, so I’d maybe wait a bit longer) . I have to admit that I was wondering, too, because the front wheel obviously has no brake, and you just retract it spinning wildly.
Pilot_DAR wrote:
I choose not to apply brakes after takeoff
Don’t you hear snow splashing inside? yes as you said it does not matter that much aside from noise inconvenience in the mains under the seat, I used to hear mud & water getting crunched inside sometimes when on takeoff from muddy grass but the aircraft will need load of cleaning anyway and one get lot of that during ground roll as well….
OK the thing about tapping brakes on retractables after liftoff has been discussed before.
So I’ll stick to tapping brakes. And the nosewheel is not moving sideways, as the main gear does, so it’s non-critical and can be retracted even if it was still spinning around.
When I was being trained in the Aztec and Cheyenne, brakes after takeoff were a no no, company policy. I was told that policy was based upon a bad experience, but that was before my time. Yes, I agree that there’s lots of force during braking to slide a tire. (Side note, the DHC-5 Buffalo had so much such force, the tire beads and rims were cogged to create a permanent lock against such sliding). Anyhow, as explained to me, unlike braking during an decelerating stop, after takeoff, the wheels are turning somewhat faster, and quick brake application can snap the wheel to a stop, rather than simply slowing it. I certainly have seen (and corrected) creeping tires, and have two flats resulting from “bent” valve stems in tubes cracking.
If I’m taking an RG off from mud or snow/slush/ice, I’m extra likely to let the wheels spin down, to spin off as much gunk as possible as they coast to a stop in their own. What is thawed at low altitude during retraction can freeze at cruising altitudes. I had this happen once while flying a 182 amphibian, the result being the wheels on one float were frozen up, and would not extend. I had to land on ice, one side up, the other side down. It thawed, we jacked the plane up, extended the offending gear, and the plane was fine. Without a frozen lake to land on, it would have worked out less well.
I don’t think that there’s any one right rule for this, but I have never seen a POH which says to apply the brakes after takeoff, and I know of some reasons it might be a less good idea…
Pilot_DAR wrote:
I had to land on ice, one side up, the other side down
Interesting, but was the down wheel also stuck on down? I’m just being curious because if not, you could potentially have landed on water with all wheels up? The landing on ice with one side down the other up must have been ‘interesting’…
