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There are two things that matters to fly safely, either:
- You have load of currency on single type and single mission
- You learn fill up your toolbox to cope with various types & missions

gallois wrote:

Gliding is a useful skill if you fancy it. But so is the IR. You don’t need to be a glider pilot to fly an ILS but the ability to hand fly the green lines and dots accurately is helpful.

Of course but you have to stick to ATC runways with ILS on both ends otherwise I am sure an IR pilot would need lot of visual hand flying skills when they are circling from ILS at 500ft agl in 2km visibility, landing in +25kts winds? if they have done some gliding/aerobatics they would not have much problems joining busy uncontrolled VFR circuit without ATC or keeping their calm to fly the green arc in bumpy weather, and while at it they probably never saw chevrons in G1000 screens, so the first time they hit a TCU/CB is likely to be the last one…

There is always something to learn (since I learned how to land ULM in gusty winds, I no longer have issues with crosswinds in touring SEP)

Last Edited by Ibra at 27 Sep 11:12
Paris/Essex, France/UK, United Kingdom

gallois wrote:

the “S” which does exactly the same thing but the aircraft remains coordinated

I don’t agree. “S” turns on final approach are much less stabilized than a deliberately entered then recovered slip. I’ve seen many pilots flying “S” turns with the ball sloshing side to side. Some plane types require extra attention to rudder use in turns, particularly rapidly repeated turns. “S” turns provide repeated opportunity to destabilize the approach, involve changing G loading and speeds, and changing runway alignment. A well executed slip will keep you on the runway centerline the whole time, with a constant speed, heading and rate of descent. Corrections can be applied to the slip to keep it as desired, and if well done, few corrections will be required. “S” turns are constant corrections with really nothing stabilized.

And, if a high rate of descent is desired, the slip is the better way to get it [than an “S” turn] as the slip is a constant high drag maneuver, where “S” turns are recovered to “normal” drag between every turn.

I suppose that “today’s” pilots, some of whom take a parachute on every flight, may not need this skill as much. They don’t need the sharp rudder skills to handle a taildragger either. It’s a changing skill demand, I get it, but that changing skill demand does not make the older skills of any less value, and certainly not worthy of being replaced, nor discouraged.

Home runway, in central Ontario, Canada

If the C182R and your friend is happy flying slips then that’s okay.
But IMO pilots who are so committed to flying the techniques they do that no one else is entitled to an opinion or can possibly be a real pilot.

Mais excusez moi! First the only “friendship” ibra and I have is that we are both on this forum – I’m sure we’d get on just fine if we did meet, but we never have.

Second, whoever said I am “so committed to flying the techniques I do that no-one else is entitled to an opinion [etc]”? Not me for sure.

All I did was express surprise that slips are regarded as so dangerous in France. Im happy to fly S-turns, slip, pull the nose up to near stall speed (a stall can be recovered, at least in my plane and any other Cessna 1×2, in well under 100 feet, especially if you’re expecting it), or whatever else.

But for what it’s worth, if I’m high on final, I’d much rather slip, keeping the runway firmly in sight, than fly S turns, for all the reasons Pilot_DAR said. I’m fine with S-turns as a delaying technique when the previous plane is slow or slow clearing the runway (a constant problem at KPAO, the busiest small-plane airport in the world).

LFMD, France

johnh wrote:

He grabbed the controls and muttered all sorts of imprecations about spins and how dangerous it was.

Slips are in some aircraft spin resistant. It’s skids which are dangerous at low speeds.

In any case, entering a slip on final, at normal 1.3 Vso isn’t unsafe or something that’ll end in a spin.

I tried to stall a plane in a full slip (a Cessna 140, rudder pedal to the floor, the right amount of aileron for the slip, and then hauled right back on the yoke till it hit the back stop). The aircraft shook and nodded up and down in pitch but was not threatening to spin. In a skid, it would have been an entirely different story.

Some aircraft will spin from a slip, it’s a case of knowing your aircraft.

Andreas IOM

alioth wrote:

Slips are in some aircraft spin resistant

Of course, remember when side slipping straight on runway heading you are using the rudder to fly straight (prevent aircraft from turning) and ailerons to prevent it from drifting (in other words you are picking the falling wing with the rudder )

It’s using rudder to turn that is problematic, way more problematic in skid truns if one uses ailerons to pick the falling wing

Of course you can’t skid & fly straight at same time, has anyone demonstrated that this can happen? if no I think no one should be concerned about loss of control in this scenario

Last Edited by Ibra at 27 Sep 13:02
Paris/Essex, France/UK, United Kingdom

Ibra wrote:

Of course you can’t skid & fly straight at same time, has anyone demonstrated that this can happen?

AFAIU, any distinction between slipping and skidding only makes sense in a turn. If you’re flying straight there’s no difference.

ESKC (Uppsala/Sundbro), Sweden

Stickandrudderman wrote:

Slips are one of my favourite manouvres and Ive done them in every type I’ve flown (with one exception but that waas because it was a 2 million quid aeroplane….)

Slips work on multi million dollar aircraft too. A Citation will side slip and I have used that technique when with an instructor, who said it was unconventional but effective. The risks were minimal, it was in a simulator. :)

Darley Moor, Gamston (UK)

I would like to make it clear I am not against slips in the right aircraft nor pro “Ss”. I have done and still do both.
If during your Ss the ball is swinging all over the place you are doing it wrong. Everything need to co ordinated throughout the S both left and right turns.
I simply reported that in France over recent years, instructors had been advised to be cautious about teaching “slips” at PPL level.
This followed a comprehensive study (which as I explained I am trying to find on the DSAC website) of loss of control accidents and incidents over a 20 year period (IIRC that is the timescale) followed by testing of the most popular aircraft in the club environment and not only in the student body, in fact I think the statistics showed that they fared better than some more experienced pilots.
The testing (by experienced “test” pilots) showed certain anomolies occurred on some occasions which could have given rise to some of the incidents. One of these was a fuel situation where the pump (this is what I think was being said) was left high and dry. This, however would possibly not account for the engine out accidents or even those exercises with engine at idle. No clear reasons on fuel tanks, position of fuel pumps or levels of fuel could be demonstrated enough to give a definitive answer as to why an above the expected number of loss of control accidents and incidents over that period of time, followed on from a slip. IIUC, this led to the advice the DGAC have given to instructors. It is not a ban. Instructors can still teach slips if they think it is the right thing to do.
In the absence of an definitive answer it is for the instructors on here, and I think there are quite a few to decide for themselves whether or not they wish to continue to teach side slips or not.
I will, in the meantime try to dig out the report.
The problem is that the DSAC and BEA have made many studies of all different types in an effort as always to reduce the number of light aircraft accidents and fatalities in France.
It could simply be a Latin temperament.


The unporting problem is a different one – my instructor did mention that. On older Robins you aren’t supposed to slip with less than about a quarter tank. Newer ones have a V-shaped tank bottom and don’t have this problem. But obviously you don’t check the shape of the fuel tank before flying, so unless you’re sure it’s better to be safe.

I was thinking about the “danger” of slip entry. I guess that if you’re already slow, and you do the entry rudder first, then aileron, you COULD set up an incipient spin. Of course that’s flat out the wrong way to do it – it should be blended, but at least aileron first. So the argument could be that if you’re clumsy enough to enter rudder first, then you’re probably not going to do a great job of dealing with the incipient spin either.

LFMD, France

I covered both slips and spins in my PPL (UK – in 2020).

EGTF, United Kingdom
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