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Navaids in NL decommissioned

Who used them? I mean outside of flight training.

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

Has there any loss of GPS integrity on WAAS & non-WAAS boxes bellow RNP5 specs in the last 20years? or RNP1 specs in the last 1 year?

Don’t know, but my WAAS antenna went t*ts up on my last IFR flight and I was very happy to have a Very Old backup radio.

EBST, Belgium

Ibra wrote:

I guess Radar is available in Netherlands, I can’t imagine anyone flying en-route on fully procedural?

I was speaking as a VFR pilot. Yes, you are supposedly using terrain features and/or dead reckoning, but we all know how hard it is over unfamiliar terrain and how much GPS helps with it. Loosing GPS can really make even VFR pilot’s life more complicated.
Of course you can always ask ATC for help, but I like to not get lost in the first place :-)

airways wrote:

Don’t know, but my WAAS antenna went t*ts up on my last IFR flight and I was very happy to have a Very Old backup radio.

Good point, it’s not only about satellites falling of the sky, or signal jamming, your own receiver can fail.

EHLE, Netherlands

airways wrote:

my WAAS antenna went t*ts up on my last IFR flight and I was very happy to have a Very Old backup radio.

Flying VFR I use my phone that purpose, as a backup to an iPad Mini. I think it’s probably true that if I ever replace the com radio in my plane, the new com will have a built-in intercom (one item removed) and the nav radio and CDI will also come out when I remove the matching com (two more items removed). Less is more.

For VFR cross country use it’s hard today for me to justify any installed navigation capability. In the unlikely event that the GPS system failed completely and I didn’t know the route ahead visually, I’d just land someplace and wait it out. I don’t generally talk to ATC en route and can’t imagine getting lost and calling them for directions. That’s the stuff for fun old timer stories but I don’t think even students need to do that very often in 2021.

One day not long ago I was way out in the middle of nowhere, where there’s a VOR sitting all on its own on my planned route, so I tuned it in just for fun. In the end I could see it with my eyes and flew towards it that way Yes it worked but I can’t imagine using that system for backup VFR navigation if I had an iPhone on board. It’s just dead weight.

Last Edited by Silvaire at 22 Aug 20:19

Peter wrote:

Who used them? I mean outside of flight training.

Everyone. 30 years ago, GPS in aircraft and even RNAV equipment such as the King KNS-80 were very uncommon. ATS routes were defined using VORs and NDBs. There were no PBN requirements (the very concept was only in its infancy).

I don’t know exactly when the switch from navaid-based to RNAV-based navigation happened in Europe, but it was during the time when I was away from flying (1997-2013).

ESKC (Uppsala/Sundbro), Sweden

“ Good point, it’s not only about satellites falling of the sky, or signal jamming, your own receiver can fail”

Well on VFR one is supposed to fall back on DR visual navigation but you won’t make 600nm on that unless you find some easy feature (follow the coast) or divert in VMC, the issue is once you go off route (due to weather & terrain or getting lost) without aircraft GPS or tablet moving map dealing with airspace just becomes tricky (assuming you don’t bust few NOTAMS or temporary airspace along the way), also one need time to get used to symbols on VFR charts when moving from one country to another, I don’t claim to be very good at old DR Nav outside 200nm around local area

Fall back on VOR radials for VFR does not help much as it’s hard to define airspace in term of radials & distances, except a a circular CTR , so at the end of the day you end up calling ATC/FIS for help and you may start asking funky questions

IFR in IMC inside controlled airspace in Europe, you will surely need VOR or Radar back up for GPS but above MSA nothing bad can happen or at least ATC will keep an eye on you (except few corners where they may not have radars, like few places in southern Spain but weather is nice there anyway)

I have done most of my UK off airways uncontrolled IFR in IMC under 4kft using an old paper map and KNS80 with no GPS and no ATC help, one does get tired of that mess at some point, I doubt I am up for it again but it comes handy in winter flying…

Last Edited by Ibra at 22 Aug 19:15
Paris/Essex, United Kingdom

Peter wrote:

The Q to ask is: who is using these navaids?

I do. Quite often, actually. Round here, it’s fairly common to get radar vectors that go something like this: direct Los Angeles VOR, leave Los Angeles on the 295 radial. I find it actually easier to fly this on the frequency (113.60 in this case), than programming it into the GPS. Additionally, one of my base airports, KHHR, has a LOC IAP that uses the same LA VOR for the DME fixes. Getting a ‘leave XYZ VOR on so-and-so radial’ happens regularly. No idea if that’s a local specialty, though.

172driver wrote:

Quite often, actually. Round here, it’s fairly common to get radar vectors that go something like this: direct Los Angeles VOR, leave Los Angeles on the 295 radial. I find it actually easier to fly this on the frequency (113.60 in this case), than programming it into the GPS.

One finger tap in ForeFlight

I use VOR as VFR nav backup whenever I can. Just a habit from my pre-Ipad training.
Will VOR be removed from the curriculum if they become rare, and GPS taught instead ? Then nobody will know how to use them :(

LFPT, LFEH

I recall flying out of Spain about 50nm in open water VFR FPL with no equipment on it and nothing in our wood & fabric aircraft panel except a wet compass, then ATC asked to report radial & distance to some VOR and requested direct some GPS waypoint, my poker face is that I used DR visual navigation the simple press on SkyDemon did sort me out !

I don’t recall there was something that mandates VOR & GPS for VFR water flying?
But I understand some ATC may not have or don’t use radars

Last Edited by Ibra at 23 Aug 07:20
Paris/Essex, United Kingdom
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