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Non-CDFA and charts

Alpha_Floor wrote:

Yes, and very recently as a legitimate approach, not requested for training: EGTK Oxford NDB 01

Yes UK had load of NDBs but the Oxford NDB01 & NDD19, ADF is pointing ahead in front of you all the time !
I can’t recall an NDB IAP in UK where ADF is flown by it’s tail?
Edit: Exeter has timed NDB26 !

Airborne_Again wrote:

Oh, yes! Which war? :-)

How old are you? :-)

Last Edited by Ibra at 29 Apr 12:02
Paris/Essex, France/UK, United Kingdom

Ibra wrote:

I don’t know if there is an NDB IAP in UK where ADF is flown by it’s tail?

Cranfield!
I also flew this approach during training coincidentally.

And East Midlands, from my IR revalidation proficiency check in the simulator.

These approaches are odd because the NDB is mid-way during the final descent. They could have at least placed the NDB at the FAF, so that you don’t need to deal with the needle swinging during the final descent.

Last Edited by Alpha_Floor at 29 Apr 12:05
EDDW, Germany

Indeed, Cranfield has it flown on the tail but it’s “NDB & DME” tough, Exeter is the old “NDB & Balls”

Last Edited by Ibra at 29 Apr 12:05
Paris/Essex, France/UK, United Kingdom

Alpha_Floor Wrote:

Here’s another example of an NDB approach that can be flown CDFA or non-CDFA depending on whether you have a GPS distance to RW07. This is in practice achieved with an approach overlay.

Still surprised not to see any dashed line below the bold line to indicate the non-CDFA. As is the case in NDB 01 in VICHY (see chart start on page1). Looks like the same situation more or less as in Tenerife south.

https://www.euroga.org/system/1/user_files/files/000/052/633/52633/a349d3690/large/image.png

Last Edited by TDJ737 at 29 Apr 14:59

In the first IAC the approach includes a hippodroms On turning inbound onto the final approach course you can start a descent to 1310 ft which is the altitude you need to pass the NDB where your needle swings 180°. You then carry out a 3° descent to the MDA from where you make your decision whether to land or go missed, before or at the MAP. Often the MAP is so close the the Rwy that it’s too late as a decision point for some.
Often a CDFA would begin at the NDB which would normally be 1min after exiting the hippodrome. However, in the case there is a point FN24 at which a CDFA can be started, but you would need some equipment eg a GPS which will give you the point of the CDFA, ie FN24.
On a CDFA slope you should cross the NSB at 1310 ft which is a cross check for accuracy on you way to the DA which in this case is the same as using the non CDFA approach ie 420’
That’s how I learnt it anyway.

Last Edited by gallois at 29 Apr 13:50
France

Interesting, in the US, NPA approaches are based on an MDA which does not require CDFA. Usually the minimum visibility for CDFA is much higher than the minimum required for the approach because with the dive and drive method, (non CDFA so to speak), you can get much closer to the threshold and thus require a lower visibility.

KUZA, United States

Dive and Drive is based on an MDA in Europe as well, but many NPAs also have a CDFA now.
There is nothing to stop you going to the MAP before deciding to land or go missed, but if you get to the MAP which is at the threshold at 420ft, have visual on the runway the question is if the runway is still long enough to land on a short runway.
That’s assuming the RVR is that on the IAC or higher.

Last Edited by gallois at 29 Apr 19:06
France

European regulations and mindset is predominantly driven by commercial traffic. In many cases it is not possible for a commercial jet to get to the MAPt at MDA and still be able to land.

United Kingdom

Pirho wrote:

In many cases it is not possible for a commercial jet to get to the MAPt at MDA and still be able to land

GA can’t neither, especially if training and recommended practice is to having MDH beefed up (add 50ft, 100ft; 200ft, 300ft…on top of NPA OCH & SDH of +350ft with 600ft floor), so here you are at 600ft agl at 90kts above threshold to land on 900m runway my feeling DnD for NPA works on runways that are very long to have and ILS but don’t, it should work in FAA-land with 4km runway & 2km visibility but no ILS

But who needs an IAP on those runways? on 3km runway, you can do 1:5 approach from MSA over threshold and still land with plenty of remaining runway !

Paris/Essex, France/UK, United Kingdom

TDJ737 wrote:

Still surprised not to see any dashed line below the bold line to indicate the non-CDFA. As is the case in NDB 01 in VICHY (see chart start on page1). Looks like the same situation more or less as in Tenerife south.

Thanks Alpha_Floor: The article you added was indeed useful.
Just to be sure: when there is only one bold line, as is the case with TFS, and non-CDFA minima are published, even though they didn’t draw the dashed line past the DA (cdfa) to the MAP. 1) You need at least gps to identify the point where to start the continuous descend. 2) You can continue to the MAP at MDA as far as I understand.

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