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Decommissioning plans for NDB VOR & especially ILS across Europe

At least they’re leaving Montelimar! When I used to commute to/from Nice, the pilot would always announce “Ladies and Gentlemen, we are now approaching Montelimar…” I’d guess that 90% of the pax think of it as a kind of chocolate (like in the Beatles’ song) and have no idea where it is.

Abbeville will be missed though – our flights were always overhead ABB, presumably because of the VOR.

In the US I knew all the frequencies of local VORs off by heart, so I tuned them because why not. Flying in France I’ve used GPS extensively (how else are you going to find a VRP defined as “intersection of high tension line and farm track”?) but have never tuned a VOR.

LFMD, France

I reckon DMEs will remain, because they are used by airliner INS for enroute calibration. Historically most French VORs did not have a co-located DME but IIRC a number of them were converted.

So ABB could remain – as a DME

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

Peter wrote:

I reckon DMEs will remain, because they are used by airliner INS for enroute calibration.

Not only that. Many RNAV systems use 2 DMEs exclusively.

ESKC (Uppsala/Sundbro), Sweden

Had the GA community not been so starstruck with GPS twenty years back we would not be having this conversation, I have to agree with Peter that the ideal solution for GPS outage is DME/DME running via the database in the GPS. DME / TACAN is going to be around for some time and is an essential part of the back up systems in airlines FMC ‘s.

Had GA not in droves ignored the multi sensor Narco STARNAV system things would have moved on to a modern version that would plug into the type of GPS units we now have.

For those of you too young to remember NARCO or it’s STARNAV the unit primarily used GPS to navigate but dropped back to VOR/DME if the GPS failed to perform, if desired a LORAN unit could also be added to the system. At the time it entered the market all the IFR aircraft had VOR/DME/ADF so replacement by anything but a GPS was seen as an unnecessary expense for those who seek the $100 hamburger.

In the US a DME was a luxury for most of the piston crowd. Our transition was to LORAN and then in 1992, to GPS. About a third of the 900 VOR facilities are being removed with the MON program (Minimum Operational Network). DME at most of the discontinued VOR-DME or VORTAC locations are remaining. Many of the remaining VOR are having the service volume increased from 40 NM to 70 NM to provide VOR coverage. Airports designated as a MON airport are established to be within anywhere within 100 NM of airspace in the NAS. To be a MON airport, there must be a VOR or ILS approach that has no dependencies on ADF, DME, or radar for any part of the approach, including joining the procedure, any fixes on the procedure, the final approach course, and the missed approach segment. I have a GTN 750 as my primary navigator, but also have a KNS80 VOR, ILS, DME, RNAV VOR-DME. The KNS-80 is hooked to both my G500TXi and autopilot and has a separate GI-206A, so I feel I am well backed up in the event of a GPS or G500TXi failure.

KUZA, United States

Aren’t US airlines using DME-DME for the same reason as airliners elsewhere (fixing-up INS drift)?

Modern airliners can and do use GPS for this, and it is the only way over the oceans…

I think GA is happy to drop DME “because GPS always works” and because there is no product which can give you DME-DME based positioning (you would need three DME beacons to get a position, although once you are moving you can do it with just one, believe it or not). And DMEs are pricey – of the order of 10k. In Europe, Cirruses were sold without DME or ADF and were thus illegal for IFR but it was never enforced and nowadays the regs have changed anyway (well, unless the IAP references DME or NDB).

Fortunately one can pick up a KN73 for $1k in the US… and a KDI572 for a few hundred.

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

DME-DME is used for land based RNAV. DME-DME-INS allows navigation via use of RNAV Q routes in the US which are RNAV 2 routes above 18000 MSL. The INS handles navigation for short periods of DME outage.

Many of the existing ILS approaches have been modified to replace NDB and Marker Beacons or VOR cross radials to used DME. An example is at my airport which recently added a DME for the ILS. Victor airways and Jet airways still heavily use DME for intersections. DME is still pretty common equipment on much of the GA fleet. New production aircraft include DME as an option, but it is rarely installed.

KN73 is a GS receiver. If someone was going to install a DME, they would most likely install a stand alone unit such as the KN62 or a KNS80.

KUZA, United States

Peter

DME /DME is the first back up for the INS if GPS fails, having spent a lot of time over the North Atlantic the GPS never failed, the place I had the most GPS failures was eastern Mediterranean fortunately the airfields I used in this area had a good selection of conventional radio aids.

My last Atlantic crossing was in much reduced circumstances with a single GTN650 backed up with an ADF for long range navigation without any problems.

As much as I dislike ADF as a final get you out of the sh1t system it ticks all the boxes and we have it right now, in an ideal world a box that would rapidly auto tune a KN63 and use the GPS data base to give a position would be an ideal world solution but I don’t think the GA market is ready for this yet just as it was not ready for the Narco STARNAV.

KN73 is a GS receiver. If someone was going to install a DME, they would most likely install a stand alone unit such as the KN62 or a KNS80.

Apologies; I meant KN63 – the remotely mounted DME. Or the KN62 if you don’t want remote mounting.

in an ideal world a box that would rapidly auto tune a KN63 and use the GPS data base to give a position would be an ideal world solution

Indeed; not difficult to build, and you need just one DME which can be remotely tuned (e.g. KN63) but it will never happen…

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

Jujupilote wrote:

VORs will be decommissioned

EGHO-LFQF-KCLW, United Kingdom
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