The 4pob does not tell much, the question was the aircraft near or higher than MTOW and how much available power be had?
I recall departing North Weald to LeTouquet then Toussus on the hot day of the year with 3pob in 200hp M20J, it was 35C deg on landing at LeTouquet and 45C deg on landing at Toussus (even taxis were halted due to pullution)
The guy behind at North Weald was 4pob in 160hp C172 to LeTouquet, which seemed a bit foolish and ambitious on his RT call, I met those 4pob at LeTouquet customs (he is 70kg guy with 50kg wife and 2*40kg childrens), I think I was far more foolish that day…
Apparently, the DR400/120 had two adults and two nine year old girls on board.
Let’s not judge too soon.
But there is worse : it was a discovery flight and it started a wildfire (which everyone is afraid of in summer). Worst GA publicity ever.
The DR400/140B that crashed in the Alps carried the pilot (42yo, female) and 2 pupils from the Air Force Highschool in Grenoble. It was their flight part of BIA (aviation introduction course for volunteer teenagers).
I rent a 2005 one with a KMD. I weights 565kg empty and gross is 900kg. I remember doing a touch and go at LFPZ at about 35C close to gross weight. We skimmed the cars at the motorway which is just after the runway.
A 152 with the same engine has a max weight of 750kg.
@ Jacko you have a D140? I have suddenly become very jealous. What a great aircraft.
Jujupilote wrote:
But there is worse : it was a discovery flight and it started a wildfire (which everyone is afraid of in summer). Worst GA publicity ever.The DR400/140B that crashed in the Alps carried the pilot (42yo, female) and 2 pupils from the Air Force Highschool in Grenoble. It was their flight part of BIA (aviation introduction course for volunteer teenagers).
Woha… really bad, both of those.
We had a crash not unlike the 2nd one here a few years ago, when 3 participants of an aviation summer camp for kids were involved. Incidently, I had that group for a short talk about meteorology the evening before. The girl survived, two boys and the pilot died the next day. It almost killed that summer camp off after decades of it being a tradition. As a consequence, no more introductory flights are done during this camp.
What is the likely cause? Sounds like simple overloading i.e. the pilot imagining the W&B numbers are somehow not subject to reality?
This sort of thing is really bad PR for GA.
That’s the problem with fatal crashes, we don’t know.
Both seem to be performance related but none of them seem obviously wrong, except if the robin tried to fly this pass just at the pass altitude. The pilot was based there so had some mountain experience, not like jgmusic.
Like Ju air or the pilatus test pilot, anyone can make mistakes.
It could be mechanical issues too, sudden or trending. The one in Arcachon looks like an EFATO in a wooden area. There was already a fatal crash after an EFATO during a discovery flight in 2018 IIRC.
Is there an accessible flight recorder on the market ? It could help tremendously.
One could make one easily enough; the work would be integrating it (installing it).
This would be a start; if there is some conversation available to record. Probably would need a webcam integrated in it, so the box would be mounted at the back of the cockpit, facing forward, and would have to be fireproof. Also here.
Maybe I will be chastised for that, but – why are underpowered four seater airplanes being certified in the first place ?
Pilots do want to take people with them. Family. Friends. Relatives. Chaps from the flying club.
And then, occasionally, all they have at hand is a low powered four seater for rental, that seduces them into taking 2 or 3 people on board, and makes them stretch the limits…. And suddenly, inexperienced or full of self confidence as they may be, they’ll say, ah, what the hell, somehow it will work. It worked in flight school with the 150 back then, it worked the other day in winter, why shouldn’t it work now….
And then it is hot. And there are mountains. And you need a little more fuel. And the cousin is heavy. And the chap‘s girlfriend as well. And just like that, they are beyond the limits.
It may be an unpopular view….. and I know there are some so called four seaters which in fact are only 1-2 seaters like the 150 but they’re being used for training – that’s a different game.
Todays average person’s height/weight isn’t what it used to be in the ‘60s, when these planes/engines were being developped.
@Euroflyer why blame the aircraft or the certifying authorities. Pilots have been flying what you call " underpowered aircraft"for many years with very few fatalities in the scheme of things. Part of early ppl training is W&B calculations and density altitude calculations, or at least they should be.
As of yet what happened in these 2 Robin’s is pure conjecture. But if as has been written here it was an EFATO in one case, surely that is something that can happen whatever the power of the engine.
Also many of the accidents leading to fatalities, we have discussed over the past year have happened in aircraft which could hardly be called underpowered. Eg PA46 Cirrus SR22, Mooney.
