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Temporary IFR cancellation to get a shortcut below radar vectoring altitude

Maybe only a problem when you want acess to approach/delta C airspace from bellow while in contact with info? if I am at the right level I can get pushy on info or fis to get me a handover/clearance from the aproach guys (well they see me coming)

Obviously, this does not work in the UK as on first contact with FIS you get “remain OCAS”

Paris/Essex, France/UK, United Kingdom

Reminds me of this video :



LFOU, France

Some nice mountains there, although they could have done with less cloud cover.

The above info about Swiss Class C is very interesting. When I used to fly there VFR in 2004/2005 I never got into their FL130-base Class C. With terrain up to say FL120, this was pretty tight, and obviously there would be no airline traffic there below say FL200, as has become hugely evident in the subsequent 15 years of IFR flying there. So that must have been prohibited because I was talking to FIS and they didn’t want to coordinate with the “higher power”.

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

@Peter: Very intresting, you just confirmed my experiences. So next time, try to contact Geneva or Zurich Delta instead of Info for general and corridor class C clearances. They will coordinate with the military if it’s OK for the route and then you should get your clearance very shortly. And in case the Info-frequencies are closed, you can also check-in with Delta for flight information service. After some discussions with the SD-team, they finally added the Delta-frequencies into their charts a while ago. I’m not sure about other EFB-programms though.

Last Edited by Frans at 14 Jul 09:21
Switzerland

Frans wrote:

But I never heard an INFO-operator saying “for clearance, contact Delta” to any aircraft on the FIC-frequency.

Strange, I hear it all the time.

Regarding the Alps Class C above FL130/FL150, a quick look at the ICAO chart shows Zurich Delta 119.225 as the frequency for that airspace. If FL130-FL150 is active, it is almost certainly due to military activity not airline traffic. Just the fact that that slice is active is a clue, since normally Class C starts at FL150. Not sure I would want to be around anyway if F18’s were practicing dog-fights.

A lot of VFR pilots are reluctant to request ATC clearance to enter/cross CAS, hence the request to INFO for coordination. I see no problem if the INFO frequency offers the service, but requesting them to do so is not really the correct approach.

Last Edited by chflyer at 14 Jul 21:53
LSZK, Switzerland

On a similar note,

What about temporary descents below an airway’s MEA (and therefore also below CAS presumably) due to, for instance, icing?

I am thinking of, for example, airway L620 between CLN and REDFA, which is filed at FL100 but due to icing a descent ot FL60 is required? Would London bin the IFR FPL? There is an additional complication here in that, on reaching REDFA and the Amsterdam FIR, the airway MEA becomes FL55. So one would have to receive an IFR clearance from Amsterdam before entering if London Control had released you onto O/CAS.

EDDW, Germany

Toward CLN at FL60 you will be talking to Southend ATC and higher to London Control not London Info? depending on where you go and how high they would hand you over to Thames, Southend, Essex or London Control going west…

My understanding is long as you keep talking to Radar units keeping a valid FPL sqwak you should not worry too much about flying OCAS/CAS, it’s when you get “7000 freecall London Info” where the fun begins, but if you end up with London FIS and you are iced up they will send you to Southend or D&D who will open CAS for you, they don’t deal much with icing airframes and their frequency is way too busy to handle the associated emergencies or clearances: 124.6 is mostly for sunny days pilots looking to get basic service, border crossing and activate flight plans on the way to L2K

It’s when coming from bellow on takeoff when it gets tricky, especially if departing from a grass strip IFR with 6C deg OAT, but you should have an alternative plan or OCAS route before takeoff even if you have an IFR clearance (frequency & first waypoint & transponder code) from flight planning, you don’t want to get vectored left/right at 3kft-4kft until Dover and change frequency 4 times on initial call, one needs to be pushy in a non-FIKI, you have 5min to get over the tops or land back…

Last Edited by Ibra at 27 Mar 22:26
Paris/Essex, France/UK, United Kingdom

Ibra wrote:

Toward CLN at FL60 you will be talking to Southend ATC and higher to London Control not London Info? depending on where you go and how high they would hand you over to Thames, Southend, Essex or London Control going west…

I was thinking more of somewhere midway between CLN and REDFA; over-water, where there is only the London Class A (Clacton CTA) down to FL85 which is also the airway L620 MEA. In this scenario, if you had to descend below FL85 you’d be OCAS in Class G.

I’d like to know what happens if you go down to FL60 approaching REDFA. Will you stay with London Control? will they give you a “squawk conspicuity, freecall on route, BYE!” and leave you to sort out the mess with Amsterdam? Will they accomodate a temporary descent below the Class A and a subsequent re-entry once the ice is not an issue?

Last Edited by Alpha_Floor at 28 Mar 00:26
EDDW, Germany

On occasion going north to Scotland you drop out of Class A and you remain IFR OCAS and then re join in a coordinated manner. I think you are with Scottish Control. I can’t remember what service you get OCAS whether traffic or basic.

In your example they hopefully clear you to leave controlled airspace via descent and keep you on a basic service, coordinating with Amsterdam, although this would be unusual.

There may be an argument that if you ventured into forecast/actual visible moisture below freezing in a non FIKI aircraft, and then requested an unplanned descent, you shouldn’t have been there in the first place. With London getting clearance to leave CAS via descent is usually an excuse for sayonara :)

Oxford (EGTK), United Kingdom

I would be fairly sure that London Control would not kick you out of their “system” if you had to descend due to icing.

Quite likely they will say something like “Basic Service on leaving CAS” and pass you traffic info. That is what I tend to get when returning back to Shoreham.

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom
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