If we would like to have approved a D-reg 1975 Piper Cherokee for IFR in a minimalistic way, what is required in terms of avionics and approvals?
The intention is to use this airplane also for basic IFR training included in the PPL course with the ability to penetrate clouds when needed on a real IFR plan but without the need to go travelling in inclement weather.
Thanks.
Niner_Mike wrote:
ADF?
Not any more.
Niner_Mike wrote:
DME?
Yes.
Niner_Mike wrote:
GPS?
Don’t know. Seems like yes. I thought not, but FSAV § 3 says so (as you mentioned D-reg aircraft).
Niner_Mike wrote:
2nd altimeter?
Yes
Niner_Mike wrote:
Autopilot?
As far as I know, no. It was a requirement, that you either need autopilot or a second pilot, but at present, as far as I know, it is not.
Niner_Mike wrote:
Yearly extra checks?
If you mean the avionics check, this requirement has been dropped in 2015 or so. However, some of the instruments still need checking, radios and transponder I think.
It is really so much easier and cheaper than some years before!
But anyway, if you want to use it flying IFR, the easiest way would be to check, whether the plane you intend to buy is approved for IFR flight. Then you are on the “safe side” ;-)
Requirements for a D-reg aircraft can be found here:
FSAV
Niner_Mike wrote:
ADF?
Regulatory? No. Practically? No.
DME?
Regulatory? No. Practically? Recommended.
GPS?
Regulatory? No. Practically? Yes. (At least in central Europe.)
2nd altimeter?
Regulatory? No. Practically? Depends on your risk assessment.
Autopilot?
Regulatory? No. Practically? Recommended.
Yearly extra checks?
Regulatory? No. Practically? No.
This topic has always confused me, so any spark of clarity is fully appreciated.
I don’t blame you…
UdoR wrote:
Niner_Mike wrote:
GPS?No, you can still go with standard instrumentation, VOR and ILS indicators.
Most controlled airspace in Europe is PBN airspace. You’ll need an IFR GPS to fly there.
Niner_Mike wrote:
2nd altimeter?
Yes
No requirement in part-NCO for a second altimeter.
You could start with these things:
What does the KOEL in the aircraft handbook say?
What does NCO.IDE.A.125, A.190 and A.195 say?
What does your national AIP say regarding IFR?
Thing are the national regulations, and as you’ve seen there is still some confusion.
If we are talking about D-reg aircraft (what had been indicated by thread starter) It is defined in FSAV § 3.
Okay please find below FSAV § 3 in a google-translated version:
(initial note: ADF is item 3., but is optional)
(1) For flights under instrument flight rules, aircraft must be equipped with:
1. two VHF (VHF) transceivers (adjustable frequency range: 118.000-136.975 MHz) for the radio communication in the mobile aeronautical service with the air traffic control points, whereby for flights in the upper airspace (above flight level 245) these devices for the operation in the 8.33 kHz channel spacing must be suitable;
2. Two receivers for the signals from VHF rotating radio beacons (VOR navigation reception systems) that have the immunity to VHF radio transmitters (FM immunity) required by the applicable international standard, whereby one of these receivers can be omitted if one of the VOR navigation systems Receiving system independent functional area navigation equipment according to paragraph 1 No. 6 is available;
3. an automatic radio direction finder (ADF), which covers the frequency range 200.0 kHz to 526.5 kHz and has a direction display and a listening facility, insofar as this is required for the use of approach / departure procedures;
4. a secondary radar transponder, which is equipped with 4,096 response codes for query mode A and automatic altitude transmission for query mode C. From March 31, 2004 at the latest for new aircraft and from March 31, 2005 for all aircraft, Mode-S technology is required in accordance with the applicable international standard (at least Level 2 with SI Code and Elementary Surveillance ELS functionality). For all aircraft with a maximum take-off mass of more than 5,700 kilograms or with a true airspeed (TAS) of more than 250 knots, the Enhanced Surveillance (EHS) functionality will also be required from March 31, 2007;
5. a radio range finder (DME interrogator);
6. A base area navigation equipment (B-RNAV) with a required navigation accuracy of at least +/- five nautical miles, provided that the respective navigation accuracy for the respective airspace, the respective route or the respective flight procedure is prescribed by the Federal Aviation Office and published in the news for pilots . If the Luftfahrt-Bundesamt stipulates a navigation accuracy of at least +/- one nautical mile for the respective airspace, the respective route or the respective flight procedure and is published in the news for air drivers, a precision surface navigation equipment (P-RNAV) must be available, whose Database contains valid navigation data;
7. a collision protection system (Airborne Collision Avoidance System – ACAS II) in accordance with the applicable international standard (at least TCAS II with Software Change 7), provided that it is a turbine-powered aircraft with more than 30 seats or a maximum take-off weight of more than 15,000 kilograms. From January 1, 2005, this also applies to turbine-powered aircraft with more than 19 seats or with a maximum take-off weight of more than 5,700 kilograms.
(2) For approaches according to the Instrument Landing System (ILS), aircraft must be equipped with:
1. a receiver for the signals from ILS landing course transmitters (ILS landing course receiving system), which has the immunity to VHF radio transmitters (FM immunity) required by the applicable international standard;
2. a receiving device for the signals from ILS glide slope transmitters (ILS glide slope receiving system);
3. a VHF receiver with a display device for the signals of the beacon beacons;
4. a device for the joint display of the signals from the ILS landing course and glide slope transmitters.
(3) For flights according to instrument flight rules in airspace with reduced minimum height graduation (RVSM airspace),
[not applicable for PA28]
So from FSAV § 3 a D-reg aircraft needs:
-two radios
-one VOR receiver (if GPS installed)
-SSR transponder
-DME!
-GPS
-ILS receiver
UdoR wrote:
Requirements for a D-reg aircraft can be found here:
FSAV
That is also not correct. The Geltungsbereich of the FSAV is defined as:
Additonally, there is the legal position that the FSAV is not relevant any more for aircraft subject to EASA regulations.
boscomantico wrote:
Additonally, there is the legal position that the FSAV is not relevant any more for aircraft subject to EASA regulations.
I’ve read that too. And I’m not into all the details. But all I can find to “air ops” Part-NCO – IR" even from 2020 is still a proposal, and not a binding EASA regulation.
There still seems not to exist a binding EASA regulation.
And therefore, I would stick to FSAV for a D-reg aircraft, although it states that it is valid in Germany only.
Regulation (EC) No 216/2008 is no longer in force, it ceased in 2018:
EASA homepage
And the superseding 2018/1139 does not cover IFR instrumentation so far:
English pdf
