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CTOT nonsense

When going from CAS to another CAS with different ownership a handover has to take place. If the receiving controller can not take you due to handling other traffic you will needbto either stay with the departing controller (holding over a point, rerouting, slowing down, remaining OCAS). The nearer you are to your FPL the more likely the handover will go smoothly. It may of course be that the controllers can afford to be a lot more flexible with timings etc such as when traffic is light.

France

Peter wrote;- It is 45 mins.
Where do you get that figure?
EOBT is as it says and estimated time set by the pilot who should have worked out with the aim of taking off at particular time . ATS does not set the EOBT. A CTOT is set by ATS so that give or take, under IFR you will seemlessly follow, where possible the route and times you have set in your FPL which has been validated. The fact that it is a dynamic situation as they are also trying to make sure they maintain, apart from OCAS, the required separation. But of course they are also trying to fit in other traffic such as vfr without flight plan or vols sanitaire, or military and gliders etc. So the clearance you get in CAS takes account of all this and creates a path for you to destination. As soon as you deviate from these plans in altitude, speed, time, routing the whole route needs to be reassessed and adjusted. You will nowadays, in France at least, be advised that “you are about to leave controlled airspace are you happy with that”.
On the surface there is very little difference but in reality you are responsible for your own navigation and your own separation plus a few other things that the pilot becomes responsible for OCAS. You will, usually however, receive information on traffic, regulated airspace etc, but it is an information service and it remains your responsibility. We don’t have Class F airspace so you will not expect advice/guidance OCAS.
If you are on time at the altitude in your FPL you will be expected by the ATC and re entry to CAS is no problem. Sometimes, because the situation is dynamic they may offer you a direct and sometimes they might ask you to deviate slightly in route or altitude. Rarely, and usually if you are a long way off your FPL, early or late they might have to refuse the handover and you might get a “remain outside controlled airspace” (very rare in France, they usually give you some vectors which will do the same thing until they can accept the handover.
The major job of ATS is “efficient and safe traffic flow management” CTOTs help with that.

France

It depends on the detail.

At EGKA one can start taxi slightly before EOBT-15, because the whole thing is a bit undefined, since the departure is OCAS and you might wait for some unknown time to get a proper DC (from London Control).

At LFAT and flying to EGKA, they don’t seem to bother about an earlier start because they know you will “disappear” about 5 mins after takeoff.

Elsewhere, they can be tight.

The reason why EOBT+30 is sometimes not a totally hard limit is because, AIUI, initially the FP gets a SUSP not a CNL, so they can un-suspend it without too much trouble. ATCOs who are here can comment on this…

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

I have, on various occasions where there was not CTO, actually departed IFR slightly before EOBT -15, as well as slightly after EOBT +30.

Was that in Germany? with AFIS or ATC? or no ATS?

Some AFIS places in France will tolerate even EOBT+60 (like V-FPL), obviously, they phone BRIA who fetch and delay with no hassle, in other busy places, the user experience to go and fetch flight plan is very different (better come early and state you are ready)

Last Edited by Ibra at 22 May 09:01
Paris/Essex, France/UK, United Kingdom

Yes. And in practice, across Europe, it is even slightly more. I have, on various occasions where there was not CTO, actually departed IFR slightly before EOBT -15, as well as slightly after EOBT +30. Likely also in France, although of course I can’t remeber exactly.

Last Edited by boscomantico at 22 May 08:44
Mainz (EDFZ) & Egelsbach (EDFE), Germany

But when you fill in your EOBT on the flight plan you have taken into account that you will be leaving the ground within a 15min window

It is 45 mins.

A CTOT tightens this considerably.

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

I may be confused here. But when you fill in your EOBT on the flight plan you have taken into account that you will be leaving the ground within a 15min window. In IFR that has consequences on where you will be at a particular time throughout your journey to your destination. If you lose radio contact there is a procedure which still allows ATS to know where you should be and when. When you arrive at your destination you will commence the approach at your ETA at destination even without radio and ATS at your destination will be making allowances for this.Even though you cannot communicate with them, they will be monitoring you and clearing the way of other traffic. Any changes or delays of over a few minutes need be reported to ATS so they can make any alternative arrangements along the way. (I am talking of IFR here).
Which is why I say CTOTs are okay except when it means major delays to your pre planned flight.
I remember many years ago sitting in an aircraft on the ramp at Jersey for an hour because I had miscalculated UTC on a return trip to France. They couldn’t/wouldn’t advance my FPL by that hour I would have had to re- do my FPL and still waited the hour whilst it was processed. This being the days before autorouter.

France

The main problem with a CTOT (one which doesn’t cause a big delay) is the tightening of the permitted departure time.

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

At the majority of French airfields we start up, get ATIS and put the flight plan into the gps etc. Then we call for start up or mis en route.
This means that you are not running down your battery while you mess about with radios and gps etc. It also means that on humid days you can get the heaters on and clear the windsceen before taxi. The only time I have had a comment from the tower about this was at the fuel pump at Le Havre which is right next to the tower when instead of returning to the parking area I tried to short cut the procedure and go straight to the runway holding point and get clearance delivery at the same time. But they weren’t annoyed they just took the piss. They were looking down on me both engines obviously turning and when I called for start up thz response was but you have already started up, what do you want to do now?.
At the holding point you call ’j’ai trois minutes" I have three minutes meaning you are ready to copy the clearance, any changes you then feed into adjust in your gns flight plan. It is for you to decide whether or not you do engine and control checks before or after the 3 minute announcement. Sometimes ATCOs caĺl you up while taxiing and adk you if you are ready to copy. If I am alone or with non pilot passengers I simply say " call you back" if I’ve already done my engine and control checks and if I have another pilot next to me to copy and read back because and adjust the FPL I will take the clearance during the taxi because it usually means I am going to be given a straight enter runway and line up with little or no hold.
I took a group of BIA students to the control tower at La Rochelle LFBH. There are 2 ATCOs or 1 ATCO and 1 AFISO during normal operating hours. They are dealing with all the VFR traffic in the circuit, VFR traffic transitting LFFK, St Pierre d’Oleron LFDP, Rochefort, plus 2 airparks and Lucon Chasnais, and a few other small airfields plus about 10 ULM fields all of which are asking to transit their TMA or CTA or CTR. The two operators handle both APP and TWR and FIS(SIV) in the area. They need to telephone Nantes, Bordeaux or Poitiers to arrange handovers and get IFR clearances and answer the phone to their ATCOs to receive incoming traffic. They will also liaise on the telephone with one of the ACCs if necessary for traffic passing on and coming from upper flight levels. On a daily basis they will also be liaising with military traffic our of Cognac and military excercises plus the coast guard helicopters and the air ambulance service. As well as TWR, APP and the telephone they are operating several other frequencies at the same time. All this is daily routine, as it is anywhere. However , with perhaps unplanned staffing problems ie no one to pick up the phone as quickly as the plan appears to be to introduce the more precise CTOTs in or der to maintain smooth traffic flow management and regulation separation.
Personally, I really don’t find these CTOTs a problem. Where it does become a problem is when ATSOs further along the line are experiencing large traffic flows at the same time and can’t cope with me flying through at that time and so give me a CTOT which seriously delays take off and subsequent ETA.
NB There are some airfields eg St Sebastien where according to IFR plates you do need to call for start up before starting engines (VFR one can start without permission). AFAIR that is the only regional airfield which I have had to do this.
NB 2 I have now also experienced several times set "1000 " on the transponder. Thankfully the thread on Euroga meant it didn’t come as a surprise. Thanks for that @Ibra.

France

Yes, that is a very French thing. They call it “mise en route”, and it sort of starts your IFR clearance process.

I hate slots, too. Even if the 15 minute window happens to fall exactly where you need it, it causes undue stress. And for what? For AI’s sake, nothing more.

Last Edited by boscomantico at 21 May 19:16
Mainz (EDFZ) & Egelsbach (EDFE), Germany
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