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PA28R G-EGVA missing UK to Le Touquet (and AAIB discussion)

Pop-up IFR into the Class A above is not only not allowed, it’s placed further out of reach by the usual UK ATSU segregation – different units cover the two sides of the boundary with zero overlap. The London Control frequency for that piece of airspace appears on no VFR chart, nor will SkyDemon or the like list it.

In an emergency London Info would probably liaise with London Control to sort you out, but my bet is that you’d have to declare a Mayday. If you just asked them to coordinate for a brief venture into the Class A, my bet is that they’d refuse. The only exception to this segregation that I’m aware of is the Berry Head airway, where Exeter Radar (a LARS unit) will liaise with London Control to get you a crossing.

EGLM & EGTN

The BEA report I referred to listed loss of control in IMC as the 2nd in the list of accidents.
By far the highest was CFIT.
But as I wrote, it does cover the early days of GPS and the report does just say “there was GPS on board”. It did not make any claims about the relevance or not of this fact.
I also do wonder (putting aside legality etc) if one is safer keeping straight and level, if I inadvertently entering cloud rather than climbing/descending or weaving movements to avoid connective clouds. (Excepting of course CB and possibly TCU.)

France

but my bet is that you’d have to declare a Mayday.

I agree, but you would get massively busted, as a VFR-only pilot trying to climb into Class A to get over some buildups which you could see coming from miles away. Can you also imagine the thread on FB

The only exception to this segregation that I’m aware of is the Berry Head airway, where Exeter Radar (a LARS unit) will liaise with London Control to get you a crossing.

True, though LC often refuses to talk to Exeter even though there is no traffic; better to route N of EGTE which is owned by Cardiff below FL160 – see here.

I also do wonder (putting aside legality etc) if one is safer keeping straight and level

Definitely yes.

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

Peter wrote:

I agree, but you would get massively busted, as a VFR-only pilot trying to climb into Class A to get over some buildups which you could see coming from miles away. Can you also imagine the thread on FB

The problem is human natures. Nobody wants to admit to a mistake, and we all think that we can fix it by ourselves before anyone notices.

This is made worse by the fact that VFR into IMC is rarely done in a perfectly blue sky with a big cloud in it, which the pilot sees and somehow flys into. Instead it’s usually a murky day with questionable visibility and cloudbase and the pilot is manouvering trying to find a way between the bad patches. They think they are doing ok until the window turns all white/grey. Up to this point they probably think that they are pushing things, but are still ok.

This means admitting a mistake comes with a feeling that you’ve a lot of explaining to do about how far you flew in less than ideal conditions. It also means that you might feel that a 180 isn’t an easy option as once you’ve turned around, you’ve still a fair bit of murky conditions to go back though (that you previously were able to visibily manouver thorugh).

So many won’t ask for help until it all goes downhill very fast at which point there is no time for anyone to help.

In reality ATC will do almost anything to help if you tell them you are in trouble, and also the exit from IMC comes much faster that you think after doing the 180.

But human nature is hard to fight.

EIWT Weston, Ireland

So many won’t ask for help until it all goes downhill very fast at which point there is no time for anyone to help.

The problem is not asking for help, you are asking ATS to coordinate or approve flying requests !
In this flight the pilot did not even ask for anything he was in Golf but he was clutched between 1500ft-FL75

- If you say “we are in clouds” like in the report, London Info has zero clues how to help as they have no idea about pilot & aircraft capability, they don’t even have a radar or see your altitude

- If you say “we are in thunderstorm and we want to climb into LTMA now”, London Info has to find or coordinate a solution for you

- If you say “mayday”, you can really do what you wish and full up paperwork later

Last time I told London Info, “we need climb clearance now as we are picking s**t load of ice”, I was not impressed by their response, I end up descending and flying 90deg left at 2kft over North Sea before going back to Dieppe, that was on Eurocontrol IFR flight plan in FIKI Cirrus…

I recall how Toulouse SIV dealt with a similar request to climb above clouds into Charlie TMA with VFR FPL, the instruction was to climb first while they worked on my handover !!

How you end up in those situations, it’s easy it happens if you fly aircraft
It helps if PIC ask what he wants and if ATS pave the way

If not have plan B to fly OCAS, or emergency/cheat: climb into TMA and leave ATC to deal with it, everybody, will agree that you are sitting on cumulonimbus, they are sitting on chairs !

Last Edited by Ibra at 16 May 10:27
Paris/Essex, France/UK, United Kingdom

I’ve used the 180 turn in IMC some years back (I’m only VFR pilot). That went ok, but what made it scary was the fact that it was a lower cloud than the rest which basically blocked the valley I was following! I was on the left side and I could remember that so I did my careful right hand 180. Having the mountains around you suddenly disappear from view is scary. After 180 turn I got out of the cloud and turned into another valley with a fjord meaning that I knew that if need be I could go low, but that was not needed, no other stray clouds popped up for the rest of the flight. Lesson learned, when flying in valleys, the cloud cover needs to be fairly high compared to the mountains top to minimize the chances of a stray lower cloud blocking the valley…

ENVA, Norway

I don’t think flying in that cloud was survivable, IR or not. The temperatures outside of them was – well below 0*C. Inside usually a little colder and it was snow coming out of them. So super cooled water possible inside?

Qualified PPL with IR SP/SE PBN
EGSG, United Kingdom

Peter wrote:

That 178 seconds thing is IIRC from some experiment somebody did some decades ago.

And it was in an aircraft with no gyros, IIRC (e.g. a day/VFR Cub type aircraft).

Andreas IOM

Graham wrote:

The London Control frequency for that piece of airspace appears on no VFR chart, nor will SkyDemon or the like list it.

Skydemon lists it. Long press on the chart where the airspace is, and the “What’s here” popup lists it (e.g. Worthing CTA class A FL65+ – London Control 134.125)

Andreas IOM

There is a load of them. 134.125 may be one, but it may not be active on the day.

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom
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