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Cessna P210 N731MT down at Hohenems LOIH

How do you fly proper IFR departure from a VFR only airfield? I’m asking for a friend

The same way how you fly from a VFR airfield at night or fly from any GPS IAP airport without SID

Most GA airports I fly from have these new GPS IAP introduced with 1.5km & OCH > 500ft and no ATC or barely an AFIS, you can’t land IFR when it’s bellow VMC but you can surely takeoff IFR in IMC without returning but they don’t have any new published SID/OMNI departures for takeoff, so what is new? the only new information you get for takeoff comes from landing missed approach: climb straight ahead and call APP at safe altitude

You taxi and takeoff under VFR and at 5ft you call it IFR and fly on instruments toward your MSA/MVA with proper obstacle clearance, you own it anyway in Golf (no freestyle low shitshow like visual circuits or scud runs under clouds)

Any IR rated pilot surely know how to plan an IFR climb in Golf to their safe altitude from 0ft agl and it’s 100% legal and safe to fly as such under SERA & NCO, isn’t this a basic teaching? (the rest are some complicated national and local details about airspace & aerodromes that no one fully understands )

For AD rules, no idea about conditions of use in licenced public or private aerodromes in Austria but say it was your private airfield with you being the only user, can you point me an Austrian law or EU law text that says you can’t takeoff and depart IFR with 1.5km visibility & 0ft ceiling from your backyard in Golf?

Last Edited by Ibra at 13 Nov 08:37
Paris/Essex, France, , United Kingdom

I too understand that 1.5 km visibility below 3000 ft AMSL is ok in airspace G in Austria.

I wouldn’t give too much on these speed indications in FR24, Antonio. I don’t think it’s a reliable source. Climb rate and altitude is somewhat more reliable. Other than that I totally agree to add some speed in IMC just to be on the safe side. If icing is no concern you can happily climb on 110-115 knots indicated.

Last Edited by UdoR at 13 Nov 09:01

Since we’re all speculating about a possible cause, here’s my contribution; autopilot mismanagement.

Based on nothing, of course…

EBST, Belgium

Very possible. If this was a renter (as it was, apparently) then currency on the aircraft systems may well have been low. For example in this thread is it very likely that the pilot didn’t know how to turn on the autopilot.

But also in this case practically everybody would engage the autopilot almost right away; as soon as stabilised, cleaned-up, and clear of obstacles.

Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

cpt_om_sky wrote:

- due to flight restrictions over the city of dornbirn (north to airport) pilot flew out runway 23 (to the south).
(if he had used runway 05 to the north. he could have flown out practically on a straight course until climbing above fog level to vfr conditions).

How do you explain the picture shown on which is claimed to show that the aircraft took of from 05?

Were you there? Are you in the position to 100% say that the take off was on 23 while dozens locals claim it was on 05?

Or do you just have a strong hunch without any proof to base it upon?

It is once again extremely frustrating to see alleged locals claiming 180 degree opposite “facts”.

LSZH, Switzerland

5km visibility is the general rule (and law) for vfr landing and take off in austria for good safety reasons.

of course it “can be reduced to 1500m visibility when flying in Class F and G below 140KIAS …..” etc.

from my safety point of view this is a reasonable “specification” but still it is an “exception under certain conditions”.
even if it is “pretty standard”.

in our case it applied.
from the information at my hand i doubt that 1500 meter (or even 1000 meter) visibility were given
at the takeoff time.


How do you get 1500m visibility with a 0ft ceiling?


The main objective discussing accidents amongst pilots is to learn from them.

We again have an accident where a pilot thought it legal and wise to take off from a small non-IFR airfield in a mountaineous area with weather conditions which were below the defined minima for the airspace.

And again we get “professional” or “experienced” aviators trying to justify this and explain how it is done “safely” despite the fact that year after year we loose friends and colleagues to such hazardous behaviour.

Is that what we are supposed to learn? Or rather, if the weather is below minimas and there is no published and verified proceedure to finally acknowledge that it is a often deadly idea to make one up?

The fog which was present that day precluded any legal way to take off from LOIH, that we can say with a high confidence .Neither was there 1.5 km visibility, nor was there a ceiling which allows any form of VFR ops in any airspace, including G. With this kind of fog, you are more or less inside clouds right to the ground.

The other bit I take away from the last two pages is one I’ve been telling myself for years and fall in the same trap EVERY time: Discard “withnesses”, “people close to the investigation” and other pretenders who “know” something and are totally sure their theory is right, even though it is only a theory.

We will only know for sure where this ill advised pilot took off when the report is out. What we do know today is that the take off was irresponsible and very likely illegal.

Last Edited by Mooney_Driver at 13 Nov 10:14
LSZH, Switzerland

Neither was there 1.5 km visibility, nor was there a ceiling which allows any form of VFR ops in any airspace, including G. With this kind of fog, you are more or less inside clouds right to the ground.

I think everybody will agree that visual manoeuvring on takeoff with less than 1.5km visibility is illegal and on IFR procedure the takeoff minima is 400m for an IR rated pilot

Ceiling? it’s 100% legal to fly in clouds if you are IR rated in Golf without clearance, ceiling is not a takeoff minima nor a criteria to approach under NCO

Then some will tell you you need ceiling = 0ft, 500ft, visual circuit, 2000ft overhead, MSA, MVA, CAS, RVSM…depending on who you ask and how/where they fly, some depart freestyle VFR and circle in IMC, some depart IFR in IMC on their own clearance and terrain separation

What one need to discuss if it’s legal to fly IFR in Golf in Austria without ATC/AFIS? and if it’s legal to fly straight-in or own departure on takeoff? is there a law in Austria that prohibits overflying congested areas?

PS: I am impressed that a bunch of pilots now use webcams to measure RVR & estimate ceilings in Golf, I will disregard the TAF for planing and use webcams next time I had the impression in the absence of TAF/METAR or ATIS/RVR only one person knows the answer in Golf…

Last Edited by Ibra at 13 Nov 10:47
Paris/Essex, France, , United Kingdom

Ibra wrote:

What one need to discuss is if it’s legal to fly IFR in Golf in Austria? and if it’s legal to fly straight-in on takeoff?

First question is whether it’s legal to take off in IMC from VFR only airfield. Which is not. Flying comes after take off. This flight wasn’t supposed to commence at all.

LDZA LDVA, Croatia
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