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Cessna P210 N731MT down at Hohenems LOIH

All of these airfields could have „easy“ PBN IFR SIDS and IAPs.

always learning
LO__, Austria

Ibra wrote:

Not different that visual departures, either you have the required climb for the flight path or not, pulling & twisting the stick does not do much help when it comes to clear obstacles in pistons after takeoff.

Exactly and that’s why nobody pays attention on terrain showed on moving map during the departure.

The only difference is left/right choices are rather obvious, which probably helped in this case if it was full red on one side of the screen but usually the choice of turn left/right and height cutoff is decided before takeoff, usually by nominating a heading (it’s easy to confuse left/right on moving maps, display configs, reverse course, runways…even ATC makes the mistake before correcting it a second after you start turning)

It was probably both red left and right when he started the turn, so probably not that obvious. And you’re definitely right – the choice of turn is done (and probably in this case has been done) on the ground, especially departing in IMC.

Last Edited by Emir at 14 Nov 17:45
LDZA LDVA, Croatia

By9468840 wrote:

The aircraft did not have old style avionics.
It was recently upgraded with G500TXI, GTN750, GTN650 and it had a fully functioning autopilot.

And here, ladies and gentlemen, we may well have the smoking gun. Note the ‘recently’ (my bold). If the pilot wasn’t very familiar with this setup which is VERY different from a traditional sixpack I wouldn’t be surprised if he got confused / disoriented. The 750 especially is anything but intuitive and one inadvertent touch (it’s touch-screen for those who don’t know this thing) can get you into some menu from which there is no immediate escape. Trying to figure that out while in a climbing turn in fog is a recipe for disaster.

The legalities, btw, are totally irrelevant as to the cause of this accident. Bear in mind, that for private ops (Part 91 in the US) this kind of departure is perfectly legal and while perhaps not wise, certainly done several times every day.

the “recently” is correct to my knowledge.
the plane was privately owned and not a rental.

one information that i could not corroborate as yet but has a high likelihood:
the gear was still down when the plane crashed.

Last Edited by cpt_om_sky at 14 Nov 19:31
Austria

cpt_om_sky wrote:

the gear was still down when the plane crashed.

If true, that’s weird and would point to some sort of disorientation. Normally the gear goes up after the positive rate of climb / no more usable runway callout, followed by departure flaps retract at 500 AGL.

IME, it happens if you have a heavy workload. I once departed, after an extremely stressful time (LSPV, lots of hassles with getting the pump working, and nobody answering re PNR/PPR at LIPV so that had to be abandoned, and bad wx to a new destination, LGKR, plus had to circle above the airfield until reaching FL129) and didn’t realise the gear was down until I got to ~FL100 and the plane didn’t want to climb Nowadays I realise that if there has been a lot of stress and distractions, checklists are really crucial.

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

172driver wrote:

Note the ‘recently’ (my bold). If the pilot wasn’t very familiar with this setup which is VERY different from a traditional sixpack I wouldn’t be surprised if he got confused / disoriented.

The question in my mind is, would such a setup and particularly the PFD have synthetic vision? If so, then it is hard to understand why this should not prevent disorientation, provided of course one looks at it.

LSZH(work) LSZF (GA base), Switzerland

G500Txi has SVT.

always learning
LO__, Austria

Mooney_Driver wrote:

If so, then it is hard to understand why this should not prevent disorientation

Au contraire, mon ami. If you’re not really familiar with these avionics, these things can lead you straight into catastrophe. I don’t know if you’ve ever flown with this kind of setup (I have with 650 and 750, not with the G500Txi though) and IME especially the 750 can bite if you’re not on top of it. My money is on disorientation / confusion brought on by some inadvertent or wrong entry and subsequent garbage on the display followed by trying to correct it.

172driver wrote:

Normally the gear goes up after the positive rate of climb / no more usable runway callout

Not on 210’s…usually gear is retracted after obstacle clearance and not in a hurry, since it increases drag during its 13-second retraction.

Antonio
LESB, Spain
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