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Corona / Covid-19 Virus - General Discussion (politics go to the Off Topic / Politics thread)

For most here, the unvaxxed are now being seen as PITAs, they are taking up hospital beds that could be used by others. They are taking far too much time off work and expecting to be paid for it. They are ruining the economy. And most of all they are stopping the vast majority of us from getting back to a normal life.
I have no problem if you decide to kill yourself, that’s your choice. But don’t take others down with you, please.
When I wrote here, I meant France not Euroga:)

Last Edited by gallois at 10 Jan 21:38
France

freedom of choice and tolerance should prevail

Fair enough, so long as you are aware of the cost to the NHS, probably 1/2 of which is directly or indirectly due to “lifestyle driven poor health” and whose budget can be found on google, and I will leave it as an exercise to anyone interested to divide that by the number of taxpayers in the country, which includes all of you guys

I have an idea. We have 8 posts before we are at 10000. See if you can make them really intelligent and informative. Otherwise I can lock the thread for a bit

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom
gallois wrote:
When I wrote here, I meant France not Euroga:)

Obviously……..

Last Edited by BeechBaby at 10 Jan 21:58
Fly safe. I want this thing to land l...
EGPF Glasgow

Archer-181 wrote:

The truth hurts that people with the correct BMI with no comorbidities have virtually no risk.

People with “correct” BMI have about 1/3 of the risk of ICU admission compared to people with severe obesity (i.e. BMI > 40). BMI of 35-40 about doubles risk, BMI of 30-35 has no statistically significant impact.
If that qualifies as “virtually no risk”, than there is extremely good news: Vaccinated people have less than 1/5 of risk of ICU admission compared to unvaccinated people. That then should qualify as “absolutely no risk” – right?

Archer-181 wrote:

The media always claim people in trouble have no health issues and show a photo which tells a different story.

I’m jealous on people who have the skill to tell weight or even BMI of people from pictures taken in ICU beds – I for myself have to admit, that even the most fit persons to me look like a drowned body after 2 days on ventilation (with very similar physiological reasons: massive amounts of liquid are accumulation in the tissue…).

Germany

Thank you Malibuflyer. That is the first time I have seen any statistics on BMI like that. The only thing I had seen was the Italian study showed that only people who had on average 5 comorbidities ended up in ICU.

The Government keep fiddling with the definition of Vaccinated – ie now it has to be 3 shots and 14 days after the third shot otherwise you go in the unvaxxed pile. I think it is really sad that I have lost all faith in Government statistics.

I accept my opinions are a little provocative and often broad brush but when our Government ignore their own lockdown restrictions and have a cheese and wine get together (they invited 100 people) at the same time as the “plebs” had all outdoor gatherings banned, could not even visit a dying relative, fly a plane solo or go to a funeral it makes me so angry. In reality all of the above should have always been allowed. Governments are drunk on power.

I also struggle to understand Israel – they have mostly had 4 jabs and their graph is like France – through the roof and the highest ever.

Last Edited by Archer-181 at 11 Jan 09:16
United Kingdom

Archer-181 wrote:

I also struggle to understand Israel – they have mostly had 4 jabs and their graph is like France – through the roof and the highest ever.

Israel only has a vaccination rate of 65% – mainly due to a significant share of population that is not vaccinated for religious reasons.

Archer-181 wrote:

The Government keep fiddling with the definition of Vaccinated – ie now it has to be 3 shots and 14 days after the third shot otherwise you go in the unvaxxed pile. I think it is really sad that I have lost all faith in Government statistics.

I don’t want to defend anything any government actually does – but from a purely scientific perspective it is quite hard to find a single definition of “vaccinated” that fits for all purposes, e.g.:
- If we want to look at health economic implications it makes sense to look at “vaccinated people” relating to the different rules set up in a country. If e.g. care workers are only allowed to have physical contact to patients if they already received 2 shots, one need to know how many did not receive those 2 shots and therefore might fall out of workforce shortly
- If we want to operationally plan vaccine production and logistics, it is more relevant, how many people did not yet receive all 3 shots and therefore which is the potential “demand gap” we need to fill
- If we want to epidemiologically understand drivers of infection and protection from vaccination it obviously doesn’t make sense to count people as vaccinated in the moment they got their jab – at this point in time protection is obviously still zero and the body needs time (7-14 days) to build protection.

Germany

Archer-181 wrote:

I also struggle to understand Israel – they have mostly had 4 jabs and their graph is like France – through the roof and the highest ever.

Omikron appears to have totally changed the game in as so far that infections soar to levels which make it clear that there is very few protection from it. I think it has been mentioned before, the contrapoint to this is that hospitalisations and death figures have risen in no relation to that.

So while it is pretty clear that vaccinations still do their job to protect from heavy cases, hospitalisation and deaths, they are not effective against Omikron infections in many cases. The current theories appear to be that you are best protected against infection within 4 months after 2nd or 3rd vaccination, so what the Israelis appear to try is to go ahead with this kind of schedule with a fourth jab. Israel is rather interesting for the reason that they basially were the first to start the vaccination processes in 2020 so they are always a few months ahead of everyone else. So what happens there to an extent is seen by many experts as what they have to expect.

If I understand it right, the only protection against infection with Omikron appears to be to keep strictly to measures (e.g masks, distancing) as well as keep the immune system stimulated via the booster shots now done. Whether this will go on indefinitly, I somehow doubt it. Some say that Omikron will infect everyone, no matter what vaccination level they have, but be unnoticed by many and a non life threatening disease for most vaccinated folks, with little change for the unvaxxed. If what those experts say comes true, it may be the end of the pandemic, because there will be a base immunity after Omikron.

I am hesitant to believe this as looking how fast Omikron has spread, any new variant as infectuous as Omikron but with a higher death rate and outfoxing the vaccines could very well spread total disaster in no time as well. But all we can do is wait and see and keep ourselfs as protected as we can.

On a side note: I read these days that one of the side effects of the Covid pandemic and the implementation of the new kind of RNA vaccines appears to be that there finally will be a vaccination against Malaria, based on the same technology. I am reminded of what a biochemist friend of ours said early on last year: The consequence of those vaccines now finally finding their way into medicine may be a total game changer for many so far incurable or unpreventable diseases including many forms of cancer. If that be the case, something good might come of all this terror after all.

LSZH(work) LSZF (GA base), Switzerland

gallois wrote:

they are taking up hospital beds that could be used by others

My wife who works in medical/pharma told me they see trends of severe gangrene conditions and material proportions did result in surgically removal (amputation), the majority were attributed to people not get diagnosis or treatment: they are being put in the back of the queue behind people with “it’s just a normal flu” (aka CV19) who are having priority for beds rather than stay at home or get vaxxed then leave with it…

I tend to respect people freedoms not to get vaxxed but I really don’t think it’s fair to take hospital capacity, why they can’t stay at home (even in critical conditions) until they recover after catching it? why not opt for a “fair system” where you would allocate hospital capacity as % ratio of hospitalizations in vaxxed & unvaxxed samples? there should be some risk-reward there, you can’t just have it all: unlimited “personal freedom” and unlimited use of “public resources”?

Last Edited by Ibra at 11 Jan 10:23
Paris/Essex, France/UK, United Kingdom

Archer-181 wrote:

The Government keep fiddling with the definition of Vaccinated – ie now it has to be 3 shots and 14 days after the third shot otherwise you go in the unvaxxed pile

Personally I find that pretty fair. You need 5 shots to be immunised against Tetanus, and Rabies is about the same. ’Flu strains change frequently, so we have yearly vaccines. We know how many jabs you need in these cases, because we have long experience to draw on. Covid is all new, and to some extent a moving target.

I don’t know what the ultimate scenario is going to be for COVID vaccination. If I were to bet on it, my guess would be that we might end up having a few more modified boosters (e.g. for Omicron) then in the worst case, top-ups every few years. It seems to me unlikely that we will be talking about boosters every few months or even yearly as with the ‘flu. I might well be mistaken, but I think it’s wrong to assume that as frequent jabs seem to be necessary at the moment, they will continue to be necessary in the future.

Last Edited by kwlf at 11 Jan 10:32

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom
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