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ChatGPT discussion, and ChatGPT-generated post examples

ChatGPT autorouter

It produces routes but none of them are valid. I tried for about 1/2 hour but no matter the constraints I gave it, the routes would use waypoints that either were in another country far off the route, or used airways which go in the wrong direction.

Anyone else have a go at it? I also tried Bing but it was even worse.


Given that IFR routes are subject to given rules and constraints, an AI based tool is counterintuitive.

What could work is requesting a solution to the mess that is european IFR route planning for low performance airplanes (all reciprocating engine powered single engine airplanes).

always learning
LO__, Austria

Snoopy wrote:

Given that IFR routes are subject to given rules and constraints, an AI based tool is counterintuitive.

Yes and no. Finding valid IFR routes is a search problem. AI could certainly help with such a search.

Last Edited by Airborne_Again at 10 Mar 18:25
ESKC (Uppsala/Sundbro), Sweden

The search is trivial. I was a beta tester for several of these, last time the Autorouter.

Then you have to get a paid B2B access to Eurocontrol for iterative validation.

The challenge today is providing continuous support to irate users for free, necessary because a well privately funded individual is providing a very good tool for free… for now at least

That said, ChatGPT is unbelievable and I am surprised somebody hasn’t started a thread in Hangar Talk on it

Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

Airborne_Again wrote:

Yes and no. Finding valid IFR routes is a search problem. AI could certainly help with such a search.

I doubt it is a search problem, given the organic nature of Eurocontrol ‘systematics’.
AI does not give birth to I, it is an I-parasite, using and eating it.

Last Edited by MichaLSA at 11 Mar 07:34

MichaLSA wrote:

I doubt it is a search problem

Speaking as a computer scientist, by definition it is a search problem.

ESKC (Uppsala/Sundbro), Sweden

Back in the day when I did cough AI code, everything was a search problem in some graph or state: DFS, BFS, A*, MinMax…that was AI in the context of gaming which is no different than AutoRouter problem

I fail to see the extra utility of AI techniques in Language and Image processing into “combinatorial routing problems”? having said that, it’s impressive to solve something as easy as 2*X = 10 using ChatGptDeepAffineSolver with Vec2Word in T-SNE space with StochGradientBackProp…compute is distributed and it sells very well in presentations

What would be interesting is some NLP program that reads EuroGA and other online resources and figure things out on what works with Eurocontrol filing and flying while adding value to AR routings

Last Edited by Ibra at 11 Mar 08:34
Paris/Essex, France/UK, United Kingdom

There also must be some algorithm there, something computing minima/maxima, and fast, or the problem will take for ever to solve, or the results are very suboptimal.

The elephant is the circulation

Autorouting is done with

  • acquire a CAS database (this can be just a map of the airways, for a simple method)
  • use one of the very common route find algorithms to find a route through it (the second oldest profession for computer science people)
  • submit to Eurocontrol for validation (this applies approx 30,000 restrictions to it)
  • parse the error messages
  • amend the route and resubmit

A practical implementation is a lot more work, obviously, but the above simple one used to work on the early tools (Autoplan, FlightPlanPro) c. 2008.

You spend a huge amount of time hacking the code afterwards, because

  • ATC generally hates autorouting because it reduces their workload and threatens jobs
  • ATC likes to use standard routes, so a tool which generates a shorter route which validates is wasted because they will just send you on the preferred route anyway
  • many countries deliberately withold airspace data from Eurocontrol, because they see it as reducing national sovereignity (nationalism is huge in Europe)
  • a lot of routes validate but absolutely cannot be flown
  • you gradually stop being too clever and move to offering standard routes
  • there are a lot of details like how you operate from airports with no SIDs/STARs and get validated routes

Then you have to deal with supporting a few k users who want it all free of charge

Eurocontrol put a lot of work into protecting the business of Jeppesen, with whom they had some secret deal, and worked hard to obfuscate their public validation gateway to prevent the creation of routing tools. Eventually they managed to force router services to use their paid B2B gateway. That is what Autorouter, Foreflight and Rocketroute now use.

This is nothing to do with “AI”. It is just a hard slog writing a load of code, putting a web front on it, and hosting it somewhere. Then you try to license it to get some money back; the Autorouter is licensed to Garmin. Then you need to validate new signups as far as possible (I had that job for a year or two for the Autorouter) but really all you can do is not authorise somebody with an email address of [email protected]

Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

Peter wrote:

This is nothing to do with “AI”.

I never claimed that AR etc. uses any AI techniques. I simply said that machine learning techniques could be used to facilitate the search.

ESKC (Uppsala/Sundbro), Sweden
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