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Cessna 501 Citation 1 SP for sale with an AOC!

Does anyone have an idea how much it will cost to put such an aircraft in service (private flying) and then fly an hour on it?

The add says “Phase 5 and Annual due”. And I fear once this plane sees the shop even only for a tire change they might find a major six figures list of problems. I am sure the remaining hours one might extract from this airframe are in fact going to be expensive. Buying a 1,5 million mustang, flying it 200 hours and selling it on would end up being cheaper per hour than to sink 150k + x Euro into this plane and having to pay for its removal from the airport sooner or later.

www.ing-golze.de
EDAZ

Peter wrote:

Why do some private owners prefer it, Jason?

No idea. I guess they think it will save them money.

EGTK Oxford

I wonder how?

In most of Europe you can get duty free fuel that way. But you can get duty free jet fuel in most of Europe anyway.

But the bigger reason is probably that the plane can be used for charter. Someone posted here ages ago that most private jets are bought with that in mind (to reduce the total costs) but most of them fail to get the expected usage.

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

Without a pre-buy inspection or at least someone from a competent Cessna service center looking at the plane, all we are saying here is total guesswork. The fact is, that many older Citations are on the market for very few money. They are not in big demand due to the newer jets around which are in the end cheaper to operate but more expensive to buy.

This particular one has one big problem and that is engine running times. Even for 165k Euros, the airplane itself does not need to be a maintenance nightmare, it is simply unsellable due to the prospect of buying new engines in 400 hours. Even if the offered replacement engines are given with it, (but they are another 165k) the problem will not really go away.

IF the airplane was in a good condition and could be flown with “just” the due maintenance (annual and Phase5), then someone can have himself a nice single pilot jet for a few years (depending how long he will fly it) and then sell it on for parts or if desired for an Eagle conversion. I don’t know whether there is a used market for engines as well, so that would be another variant, fly it with the engines installed until they expire, then continue with the other two and finally search other engines with rest potential on the market.

On the other hand, there are many Citations at this kind of price which look much better to me. Just as an example:

http://www.planecheck.com?ent=da&id=39059

This one has engines with a much better time frame plus several interesting mods, close to the price of the other one plus the replacement engines.

But this is really for a Citation Savy guy to assess.

But buying is one thing, operating something else entirely. Here Jason is the only one here who has experience operating a jet of this size.

LSZH(work) LSZF (GA base), Switzerland

Funny, there’s a guy on another forum who did just this recently – bought an old 501SP for a song and and a dance. Many can be had for around $200K these days. It has about 800hrs left on the engines and he’s going to fly it until next HSI and then just part it out – not do anything to it, or any upgrades. This way, you can basically exclude any engine reserves in his calculations. This aircraft pretty much flies for fuel + maintenance. Cheap jet? Well, as cheap as a jet would get, I guess… The 501’s are very basic airframes, not very complicated, with good parts availability. So maintenance shouldn’t be any costlier than anything else with two engines.

I played with thought, believe me. 501SP’s don’t have the range I want and they’re actually slow for their fuel burn. Not to mention, would I be ready to fly a jet? Think I need a bit more experience.

Last Edited by AdamFrisch at 16 Feb 18:53

Adam,

this one on planecheck is actually just about $200k… but with 400-500 hrs left until the engines are in for overhaul. 800 hrs left to the engines is quite nice, for most people that is 10 years flying. And then parting out can be one variant, but see the add, they have two more engines with 700 hrs left for sale with it, for another 160k. That is why I said, the run out engines can be given for part out or someone who actually wants to overhaul them and two other engines sourced.

And another variant is to give it for an Eagle 2 upgrade, which puts Williams F44’s on it. Then it becomes a true intercontinental jet :). Friend of mine had one for sale for €600k with ample engine time left and good equipment. Now that is an airplane I honestly like. But it will stay a dream for ever.

AdamFrisch wrote:

Not to mention, would I be ready to fly a jet? Think I need a bit more experience.

Well, my only jet experience is from full flight simulators while I was doing evaluations for flight sim addons and I have hands on experience on the Seneca and Saab 2000 and I had a chance of trying out a 501 for a few minutes in the air and found it very nice handling. I wish I could once try it out for good, even on a simulator, but there is none to be had around here. From the larger jets and from what I read, doing enigne out drills on both prop airplanes was a much more involved thing than doing engine outs in jets with engines mounted at the rear, such as the Caravelle, MD80 or Tupolev 154, which granted are much larger jets but the principle is the same. Jason can tell us more about how a Citation compares, but I found EFTO’s a non event in both the MD and the Caravelle (both of which I have plenty sim time on and in the case of the Caravelle and TU some stick time too) in comparison to the SB20, let alone the Seneca where before gear operation you reland. Both the Seneca and SB20 need massive action in such case, wheras in a jet absolutely nothing happens until safe altitude, no props to feather, e.t.c. and rudder inputs are much more manageable. Clearly, in a 747 or 707 with 2 out on one side that is a different story yet again, but the tail mounted engine jets are much tamer in yaw than any prop will be.

I personally think that with the proper precautions jets are easier to fly than propeller twins, particularly in an EFTO and OEI scenario. Enroute and in approaches the speed differences to a Commander are not that striking. I personally would shy away from high power piston twins (I have no experience on conventional turboprops, the SB20 is fully FADEC) but I would not shy away from a 501 or comparable jet. With proper training, if you can fly the commander you can fly a Citation 501 in my humble opinion.

Last Edited by Mooney_Driver at 17 Feb 10:44
LSZH(work) LSZF (GA base), Switzerland

With any old plane (anything well past the warranty or anything you can’t simply take to a dealer with a key and a signed cheque left on the seat ) whether it is a jet or a C150, you need to know what you are doing, especially with having a good team to do maintenance.

I have never owned one of these but know some who have, and it is obvious that if you are an old hand in operating these jets and have maintenance contacts and have been personally involved in maintenance decisions so you know exactly what needs looked at and what needs doing and when and what can be left on-condition, etc, etc, then you can find a bargain.

For someone whose operating exposure is a TB20 or some such, buying one of these old heaps would be a disaster. But someone clued-up could get something really good for the money.

As in every other area of life, the more you know the less you pay and the less you get shafted

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

Peter,

I fully agree. The first thing in such a project would have to be talking to people who have operated them in depth and get to know the operation inside out. Most people will have those birds maintained at a Cessna Citation service center who obviously know all there is to know about it, there is one in Zurich and we see lots of old Citation 500/501 there. The other thing is that most of them are on an engine program, which this one probably isn´t.

I don´t think though you can do a lot of stuff yourself on a jet like this. So you depend on a maintenance organisation who can. This goes for turboprops as well, certaily for the complex ones like King Air, Commander and upwards. What happens if someone without such an organisation starts working on this kind of planes, well, we got Adam´s example of how a plane can spend years in maintenance and never fly….. I´d say seeing German oversight for this particular Citation and it having been on an AOC there is a low probability of massive surprises, but that does not mean one can forego a thorough pre-buy inspection done by I´d say a Citation service center. They will tell you very up front what to expect. I´ve been there for such a discussion about a 500 which was supposed to be made airworthy and flown again and I know that these are no small numbers we are talking about very fast. Phase 5 however is one of the smaller inspections if I remember right.

LSZH(work) LSZF (GA base), Switzerland

You most certainly can maintain it at your mom-and-pop A&P on the N-registry. They try to make you think you need to only do it at service centers, or there’s some regulatory thing that mandates it, but that’s BS. Also, understand, you make a trade when you use service centers – all parts will be replaced with new and you’ll pay for clean facilities and a high shop rate with white glove treatment. But more importantly. you’re paying for speed. Speed is impossible to get when you send away stuff for overhaul, rather than replace with new or off the shelf yellow tagged. This is why if you’re time-poor, and cash rich – or depend on your aircraft to be returned to service as fast as possible, they make complete sense. But if you’re looking to operate an aircraft as cheaply as possible, without compromising on safety, you have to give up the time aspect. The old adage you can have 2 out of 3 is always in play.

So, you have to decide what kind of customer you are. Part 91, fly 100-150hrs a year, mainly for pleasure but also some for business (without paying customers), then it doesn’t make sense to perhaps pay that premium. But if you have a charter business or its a corporate aircraft, and it needs to be returned to service quick, then it probably does.

AdamFrisch wrote:

You most certainly can maintain it at your mom-and-pop A&P on the N-registry.

Hell, you can even get a NON-certified mechanic to wrench on your TP for peanuts as long as you find a REAL one to sign on the bottom of the page.

N’est pas Adam ?

FAA A&P/IA
LFPN
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