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Autorouter issues and questions (merged)

BAGED is a phantom waypoint which will be deleted for the next AIRAC upon our request. It is contained in both the Eurocontrol IFPS database as well as the EAD which is the official source (SDO). If you use SkyDemon or the like, it should recognize it. Jeppesen have their own database which they fill from the paper AIP and there BAGED is not contained.

For some reason, Germany has a huge number of these phantom waypoints but we’re working closely with DFS and with the next AIRAC cycle the data quality should be really good.

In your case, I would not bother and keep the route as is.

Thanks very much

i tried removing it but then i get an error about a too long DCT
i guess removing these phantom waypoints will influence the possibility of DCTs as a side-effect.

I hope it’s there in the GNS430 though, or that ATC won’t be bothered if we dont have it and skip that leg…

ELLX (Luxembourg), Luxembourg

It won’t be in the GNS430 as that uses the same Jeppesen database. ATC will probably not know it either but they don’t care in Germany, they often don’t even know your plan, they only know sector entry and sector exit.

Try using MOPAN instead of BAGED, that should solve the problem. You can edit a route in autorouter by clicking on it, changing it then hitting “validate” and afterwards “save”.

PS: The autorouter briefing pack contains a flight log with the GPS coordinates of every waypoint so there is always a way to find it…

Last Edited by achimha at 15 Apr 11:38

I’ve had the same problem with XANES. This waypoint is neither in JeppView nor Skydemon. In my case, I replaced XANES with NELLI.

ESKC (Uppsala/Sundbro), Sweden

XANES is a procedure-only waypoint although it looks unused to me (not in the EDDS waypoint list in the AIP). I’ll ask DFS about it.

There was a bug in autorouter where we would choose routing solutions involving procedure-only waypoints as the top hit. We normally do not recommend such routes (i.e. place them in a lower position in the result list) but sometimes there is no alternative. This bug was fixed on April 12th. Therefore a situation like above should no longer happen, especially when the phantom enroute waypoints in Germany disappear with the next AIRAC.

Navdata quality is a huge issue in Eurocontrol land…

Or you can enter BAGED as a user waypoint in your GNS430/530 – if you know the coordinates.

Last Edited by Aviathor at 15 Apr 12:29
LFPT, LFPN

It’s definitely not in the GNS430 database … had that same thing yesterday!

EDMA, Germany

It’s not in the Flitestar database either.

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

There are several “official” source for waypoints.

1) The paper AIPs (paper = PDF file). This is the traditional “analog” format. Jeppesen create their database with the paper AIPs like they have been doing this for the last 60 years.

2) The Eurocontrol EAD database (called SDO). This is supposed to be the main repository where each member country (that participates, some still refuse like Switzerland!) is responsible for the correctness of data.

3) Eurocontrol NM CACD, that is the system behind IFPS.

All of these databases have quality problems. autorouter is a bit unique in that it uses CACD as its main navdata source when generating plans. We also use EAD to match and we have found and reported dozens of mistakes which get corrected rather quickly by either Eurocontrol or the member countries.

JeppFD and all Garmin products use the Jeppesen database, i.e. paper AIP. SkyDemon and other tools use the EAD database. In the BAGED case, we missed it earlier because we were focused on CACD waypoints that are not in EAD. This waypoint is still in EAD (among a whole list of others) and we have just received confirmation from DFS that they are scheduled for removal. As it’s in both CACD and EAD, autorouter and SkyDemon will know it whereas other tools using the paper AIP don’t.

It’s a bit unfortunate that we as (paying) customers have to do this work. If there was somebody dedicated at Eurocontrol with a bit of database knowledge, these discrepancies could be found in a mostly automated fashion. Good news is that database quality is definitely getting better!

Last Edited by achimha at 15 Apr 13:42

This bug was fixed on April 12th. Therefore a situation like above should no longer happen, especially when the phantom enroute waypoints in Germany disappear with the next AIRAC.

I got XANES today when requesting a routing from EDDV to EDNY at FL100.

Last Edited by Airborne_Again at 15 Apr 16:44
ESKC (Uppsala/Sundbro), Sweden
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