As you seem to be inquisitive, I’m surprised you don’t have more details
There is a definite limit to what I have been able to get, and it is at the point of data and materials available only to approved dealers. For example I have not been able to get a certification diskette for my KFC225. I don’t need it but it would be nice to have it. But let me ask about the G500… I have a good current contact who installs them.
I’m with achimha, maintenance/ avionics shop with good customer service and a good relationship with them can help. As can having some kind of AOG response service – which is, admittedly, not common in light GA. Factory fit/ retrofit could be advantageous as well.
Sure, but it depends on having an excellent relationship with the installer. Some customers can achieve it, some cannot. It’s clearly more difficult to achieve it in the UK than for a German living near a certain German avionics shop! For example read this (under Installer Performance) and ask yourself how one could maintain a good relationship with such a company. Many people regard that company as the best in the UK! And don’t ask for the name of the company; we have already had a legal threat from them For another example, speak to somebody who bought a TB aircraft from the UK dealer, anytime in the 10 years or so before they went bust. Also, some people are willing to maintain a smooth relationship with somebody who sh1ts on them; I am unfortunately not among them and I prefer life that way 
My comments on the “Greek AOG situation” are obviously going to become increasingly irrelevant as time moves on, as the GA fleet moves unstoppably towards glass and usually a G1000. But it takes time; you have to fly to Greece only sporadically to notice that almost nobody who lands on Greek islands is doing it with a brand new shiny glass-cockpit plane. I don’t know why but suspect that in Europe there is a strong inverse correlation between how much people spend buying a plane and how far away from their dealer support base they fly it. As to what the causal relationship might be I can only speculate
Martin wrote:
Well, AFAIK it’s “OEM only” in the sense that they are only interested in selling the equipment to OEMs. But they don’t mind if the OEM retrofits it. For example, Diamond offers GFC700 retrofit.
Right, yes, but that is still a huge difference to e.g. an Aspen PFD and the S-Tec AP’s which can be retrofitted into a huge variety of airplanes by basically walking into any avionic shop who has the license to do this work.
I reckon the Diamond package is available for people who already have the G1000 installed? What I am referring to are systems where you can take most GA airplanes operating today and have a system installed. And there Garmin offers the G500/600 for most but not the G700 AP with it for starters, so if you want to retrofit a G500 into, say, a 1980 Beech model, you still will need to use a third party AP such as S-Tec or King.
Short of the uncertified Dynon and similar offers, there are preciously little “affordable” solutions for certified airplanes which will be possible to install into anything from a
achimha wrote:
The only reason I chose Aspen over G500 was the cost and the amount of work required to reshuffle the panel.
Apart from the fact that it does allow quite a lot of upgrades (such as adding a 2nd one getting a similar setup as the G500) and also allows more digital and analogue channel inputs. I did talk to my avionic shop about the G500 at the time and they clearly recommended going the Aspen way even though it meant less work for them than a G500 install would have done. The other bit was that costs are exorbitant with a G500 installation in comparison.
I do hope that one day the DFC system will get certified for my plane, gives me another option. I certainly like the IAS hold mode and the protections. But I am not holding my breath that it will.
Mooney_Driver:
that’s wrong for sure. The Cirrus fleet (and I guess it’s the same for any other modern type) flies long distance mostly, and I almost never see SR22s doing the typical Saturday afternoon burger runs. But I see them (German or G-reg ones) on Crete, in Croatia, in the South of France, Spain.
My shortest flights are 200 nautical miles (except some very short test flights) but i do many 3-400 NM ones, and about 3-5 of longe ones every year. Okay, that’s nothing compared to some TB20s, but still :-)
If the PFD fails I’d simply fly it home in VMC with the mechanical backup instruments and if the MFD failed I’d simply use my iPad.
FWIW In 2012 I was quoted €48k for a G500, including installation of a GNS430W, but the installer would have kept my existing gear (KX165A/8.33, KLN94, KMD550, the whole KCS55 slaved compass system) which would be worth about €10k on US Ebay. That was a French shop. Then a UK shop said they will do it for “much less” but by the time you looked at the full job it would have been about €40k.
All prices plus VAT.
The prices from US shops are much lower. If one could fly to the USA easily, Europe would be finished for avionics. Or, Garmin would have to support the dealer price appropriately else they not have any dealers here.
Flyer59 wrote:
that’s wrong for sure. The Cirrus fleet (and I guess it’s the same for any other modern type) flies long distance mostly, and I almost never see SR22s doing the typical Saturday afternoon burger runs. But I see them (German or G-reg ones) on Crete, in Croatia, in the South of France, Spain.
What are you referring to being wrong? I fail to understand your post.
Peter,
an Aspen EFD1000 Pro installation with full wiring up of the existing nav systems will be between 15 and 20k Euros depending on where you do it, of which 10$ plus tax would be the price of the Aspen.They did not get this popular for nothing.
I was told at the time that you can’t for instance wire up the ADF or a non Garmin 2nd VOR to a G500, which means you realistically need 2 GNS430 or higher to make full use of it. I heard in the mean time that apparently Garmin provides for analogue VOR input by now, but have not seen it confirmed.
The Aspen can accomodate inputs from next to everything. Mine is wired up to the GNS430W as primary, a KX155 as the secondary. I did not wire up the ADF as it would have meant to include another analogue converter, but it could have been done. I can at any time add a 2nd Aspen, which would give me full redundancy, or an MFD which would basically be equal to the setup of the G500 for relatively few money, as that one slaves of the first one.
I was quoted something along the lines of 50k for a G500 installation at the time I asked, not that I ever really considered it.
Peter wrote:
The prices from US shops are much lower. If one could fly to the USA easily, Europe would be finished for avionics. Or, Garmin would have to support the dealer price appropriately else they not have any dealers here.
The device prices are comparable, the difference is usually the VAT which in the US you can often (half legally) avoid or is generally lower. The hourly rates are very similar but there is a big difference in the US depending on where you are. The amount of time required is similar so I cannot see a major difference in cost between doing avionics work here and in the states.
Obviously the environment is more competitive in the US because it’s a large market where everybody eats the same burgers I mean speaks the same language. Here very few people do pan-European shopping and just go to their local place which happily charges list price on the devices. When I do major avionics work, I inform myself about device prices in the US and demand a competitive price from my dealer in Germany which does work.
Peter wrote:
For example read this (under Installer Performance) and ask yourself how one could maintain a good relationship with such a company.
I already read that one. And you are quite right. Not to mention, relationships change. I don’t like to rely on kindness, I prefer leverage. That said, if you have it, it can help. Given that at least one school in Greece has Diamonds with G1000, I guess there should be some support available.
Mooney_Driver wrote:
Right, yes, but that is still a huge difference to e.g. an Aspen PFD and the S-Tec AP’s
I wasn’t trying to say anything different. It is OEM only, they just don’t mind retrofits. Which means third party can’t do it, only the airframe manufacturer (I guess whoever has the license and is properly certified). Not helpful when the manufacturer isn’t around or isn’t interested in offering such retrofit. And, as Peter likes to say, they have over a barrel – you can’t go anywhere else. Or, of course, Garmin itself.
Yes, you are correct. It’s for people with G1000+KAP140 combination. And it’s not necessarily as simple as changing an autopilot, which means it can get very very expensive if you’re unlucky. I don’t know whether they offer G1000 for the steam gauge planes – I wouldn’t be surprised if they had it on paper, but it could be prohibitively expensive.
GFC700 should be intended for G1000 and maybe up, I’m not sure what they use with them (there is also GFC710, if I remember the designation correctly). So no surprise that they don’t offer it with G500. It’s intended for airframe manufacturers. And maybe for some select retrofits (there is a G1000 retrofit for King Air and already mentioned CJ, but I don’t know of the top of my head which autopilot they used). Not broad retrofits like the S-TEC has. Just like with the G1000. I guess it’s simply not worth their time. They do offer autopilot (GFC700 based I think) for non-certified aircraft.
achimha wrote:
When I do major avionics work, I inform myself about device prices in the US and demand a competitive price from my dealer in Germany which does work.
Me too and in general. If the difference justifies the effort, either local supplier will meet my demands (and I’m willing to pay a bit more locally for the convenience) or I’ll go elsewhere.
Given that at least one school in Greece has Diamonds with G1000
The G1000 is normally reliable, and they have multiple planes.
Which was just as well since I heard from locals that most of their fleet was grounded during the Thielert saga, at the same time as they were putting out public statements that they have an excellent relationship with Diamond GA is quite funny sometimes.
The GFC700 could easily be sold OEM but Garmin have to build and maintain relationships with OEMs and these would be damaged if they undermined the OEMs’ marketing by flogging the components to people with used planes who would otherwise be prime customers for new planes.
There is always pressure on vendors to sell stuff only to OEMs, to encourage aircraft upgrading. TKS, anyone?
you can’t go anywhere else
Very much also depends on what work you can get done locally, or “not locally but can get a train back home”. I can’t get anything done without major hassle, where I am. I have to stick with avionics which can be worked on locally.
Being limited to VFR is also not a good option. You could be stuck for weeks.
Martin wrote:
Not broad retrofits like the S-TEC has. Just like with the G1000. I guess it’s simply not worth their time. They do offer autopilot (GFC700 based I think) for non-certified aircraft.
I spoke to Garmin’s product manager for the GFC some time ago. He said they did do a business plan on offering STCs for select airframes but deemed it to be too costly to be worthwhile. I can understand that because looking at Avidyne, it seems to be a substantial effort and there are just too many airframes with too many variants to get to a critical mass in the market. The SR20/22 retrofit was a nice one for Avidyne because there were a lot of aircraft where it was an easy upgrade but all the other STCs are a lot more difficult. Even though Avidyne are the only company with a modern retrofit autopilot on the market today, it’s far from a slam dunk.
