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Robin aircraft in receivership

Peter wrote:

Notes from one DR401 owner who paid a packet for a new aircraft here and especially from here. That one was so much trouble that it was eventually returned to the Robin dealer…

Apparently the biggest problem there, if I read the post correctly, was the TDI Diesel, which needs specialist work to reset FADEC faults e.t.c. That would, as the poster said, not be unique to Robin but to Diamond and others as well.

Most Robins however fly normal Lycoming or Continental Engines and also common props.

What is a big deal however is that many of those planes can’t get modern avionics and autopilots installed, some can’t get any. I was looking at a HR100 a while ago which would be a great touring airplane with it’ 10 hour range, but that plane if any needs at least a simple 2 axis AP for flights of this kind of duration. Alas, the only one allowed appeared to be the venable Badin Crouizet offering, even though I’ve also seen an Edo-Aire Century 1.

LSZH(work) LSZF (GA base), Switzerland

You can certainly have fun and games with STCs especially Aspen ones which are sponsored and then aren’t sponsored This is partly the result of a lack of an FAA TC.

They couldn’t get it started for a long time.

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

I think the main problem is parts and the fact that the factory has been very unreliable in recent years. On the other hand, due to the fact that the structure is wood, a lot of qualified shops can make these parts. Other stuff is not that easy though and as Robin has been known to use unique parts, some are difficult to come by. That is not helped by the fact that each model is different and not even in between they are very similar at times.

I do remember the situation when friends here had a CAP aerobatic single seater, with both and Robins being represented by Apex at that time. Basically in order to get any factory parts they had to establish a personal relationship with the factory. Somebody would then turn the lights on as a favor and search the shelves for what they needed. Apex was either about to, or had already gone bankrupt at the time.

This was not a huge constraint for them because the plane was put in Experimental category and they generally made their own parts including a whole new 100% carbon fiber wing. As a result of their businesses they had better manufacturing capability than the OEM. The fuselage was still wood though and it was an absolutely beautiful plane. One might propose doing the same if you wanted an N-registered Robin but it’s much more difficult if the plane isn’t e.g. aerobatic, a warbird or historically significant.

Last Edited by Silvaire at 01 Mar 16:29

The Avions Robins book says the HR.200 and R.3000 were certified in the USA, but on the FAA registry I can only find 3 amateur (HR.100/250, ATL, DR.400/200) and one certificated (R.2160). Is there anywhere else I could look @Silvaire?

Looking into the R.3000, there’s a good article in French on AeroVFR

The cockpit is TB20-level design

Translation of the no-compete agreement:

This R-3000 range was born in a difficult context, when the Dijon-based manufacturer went into receivership in the early 1980s. To help the manufacturer industrialise its R-3000 in the form of reimbursable advances, the State, via its Directorate of Civil Aviation Programmes (DPAC), imposed a number of constraints, such as limiting the R-3000 to a maximum of 160/180 hp so as not to encroach on the market for the TB-9 Tampico (160 hp), TB-10 Tobago (180 hp) and TB-20 Trinidad (250 hp retractable gear). Moreover, part of the R-3000 range was marketed for a time – without too much zeal, it goes without saying – by… Socata, the main French competitor! But Pierre Robin was obliged to sign such a contract…

Robin partially circumvented this simply by moving the rpm redline on the smaller-engined planes, the O320 to 140hp and the O360 to 160hp. The 6 seat testbed airframe for 235-300hp engines was named a ‘glider tug’.

By the time the Socata agreement had expired, the company had been sold and the new owners weren’t interested in product development. The 6-seater lost 2 seats, and work stopped on the 90%-complete retractable. They also dropped the fully composite X4, which looks very much like a proto-Cirrus.

One of the recent problems with Robin which I discovered when I used to look after a DR.400 is they hardly stock any parts. You want an exhaust? 2 weeks admin plus 6 weeks manufacturing plus 2 weeks shipping.

EGHO-LFQF-KCLW, United Kingdom

Capitaine wrote:

The Avions Robins book says the HR.200 and R.3000 were certified in the USA, but on the FAA registry I can only find 3 amateur (HR.100/250, ATL, DR.400/200) and one certificated (R.2160). Is there anywhere else I could look @Silvaire?

The FAA registry is where I’d look too but for amateur built aircraft you won’t usually find them looking under ‘Avions Pierre Robin’. Typically for E-AB aircraft the manufacturer is listed as the builders last name. That makes the search difficult.

Certified aircraft are supposed to be listed in the FAA registry under the manufacturer’s name as listed on the type certificate but this sometimes gets jumbled up. I searched and there are eight all metal R2160s on the register, 5 in California, 1 in Colorado, 1 in Delaware and 1 in Ohio.

A flight school in California (at Long Beach KLGB airport) used R2160s as trainers then sold them, and those planes have a lot of hours. This one was crashed into the ocean in 2005 and lost. Another forced landed without damage (!) into a concrete drainage canal in 2020. The one in Delaware was advertised for sale a while ago.

Last Edited by Silvaire at 01 Mar 22:12

Just a slight nuance here.

The AIRCRAFT CONSTRUCTION side of the business is in receivership.

The MAINTENANCE AND SPARE PARTS operation is still very much a going concern.

LFCS (Bordeaux Léognan Saucats)

Robin will have a stall at Aero. I wonder or don’t wonder at all what kind of questions their sales rep would be fielding all day long.

EDMB, Germany

Do I get it right or is Robin in some sort of receivership roughly equivalent to Chapter 11? So basically a get rid of the liability scheme?

I also read that this is only part of their operation and that the support for the existing fleet is unchanged (which may be good or bad…)

Capitaine wrote:

But Pierre Robin was obliged to sign such a contract…

That is what happens when the state interferes with business…. as if there was no market for both.

But then again, seeing how many airplanes get shot down by certification hurdles and running out of the insane amounts of money to do that, nothing special….

LSZH(work) LSZF (GA base), Switzerland

The AIRCRAFT CONSTRUCTION side of the business is in receivership.
The MAINTENANCE AND SPARE PARTS operation is still very much a going concern.

That’s not exactly common and must have been done for this reason. Can anyone tell when the parts company was incorporated? If recently then this scheme may not work.

To help the manufacturer industrialise its R-3000 in the form of reimbursable advances, the State, via its Directorate of Civil Aviation Programmes (DPAC), imposed a number of constraints, such as limiting the R-3000 to a maximum of 160/180 hp so as not to encroach on the market for the TB-9 Tampico (160 hp), TB-10 Tobago (180 hp) and TB-20 Trinidad (250 hp retractable gear).

Who was arranging the corresponding “protection” for Socata? Did Socata get DGAC funding also?

Robin will have a stall at Aero

The spares company, I presume

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

Their new aircraft don’t offer any cost advantages to aero clubs compared to well maintained second hand examples.

My disappointment with their closer lies with the fact they are now producing a 140hp Rotax powered example.

Although sadly at present with the TBO being 1200 hours it’s also not commercially viable to aero clubs. However this might change if/when the TBO is increased to 2000 hours.

Last Edited by Bathman at 03 Mar 08:12
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