eddsPeter wrote:
And then the Bonnie followed, because of going often to France to our second home her performance shortened the time to destination so much and the short field and grass strip performance is as good as with the others before.
Looking at current prices, Bonnies should definitly not be excluded from the above list as they are in the same ballpark. However, there will be people with more data than me to comment on those.
Another variant may be a Rockwell Commander or a Piper Comanche. .
You might be just fine with any Arrow, there are so many Arrows around that it can’t be all wrong. So one option is to just do it and see what comes out. It’s a learning process, and in the end you’ll know what you want(ed). I’ll put some further thoughts in here.
Although I tend to agree to some degree to the “buy the last plane first” I don’t know if this fits any situation. For example, in current stage of life I have certain limitations which will change in future. I don’t know if I’ll stay forever with the plane I have, but what I have found is the best bet I could get to maybe keep it.
I fully agree that an airplane is a real big invest. In time (there’s a lot of things to learn). In money (any plane has its topics, typically critical ADs, and you should know which one may end costly – yet another reason not to change the aircraft too often). In sweat, tears and blood. And so on. So don’t jump too short, but keep it reasonable for your way of life, so that there’s always enough money left to keep the thing in the air.
Most important thing over all: Clearly define your mission profile! If you’re in for cruising long distances, the perfect fit craft is different. But are you willing to fly, say, 6 hours in one long leg, or will you land anyway every 2 hours? Grass strips (typically retractables don’t like grass) once a year or every weekend? Four POB regularly or once a year? What about the family? At full MTOW over the alps regularly or once a year? VFR or are there intentions to go IFR? Only for the holiday trips with a lot of flexibility, or are there concerns regarding the timetable? Really do think about all of it. You’ll find an airplane for any need, but it’ll be frustrating to not have thought it through, because you’ll end up with constantly thinking about that you “should have”….all airfields are full of planes which are flown 10 hours a year. There are many reasons for it.
You will find a lot of knowledge here in this fine place, with people willing to pass their knowledge and providing solutions you’d not thought about. Just do the favour and think a bit about it first and search here in earlier discussions, as “mission profile” is something which will definitely have been discussed here earlier.
So we sold our share and went for a PA28R Arrow 2. And this one was nice. Although equipped with the retractable gear it was good on grass and good for short fields. We have been everywhere in Europe with her and still love her.
@eddsPeter sums up very well why the Arrow II is a favourite. While the taper wing Arrow III should be sprightlier and nicer to fly, for some reason the II feels sportier and seems to be a tad faster. The ability to spot land on a grass strip makes the II a great all rounder.
lukepower wrote:
Our instructors recommended to avoid the “jump” to high power stuff like a Bonanza, so we settled our hearts and went looking for a decent C172 or similar aircraft. What they really tried to hammer in into our heads is to not start with a retractable aircraft.
I’ll add my voice to all others saying “Oh, Deity, no”. Unless your one and only intention is burger run hops and local sightseeing flights, or the choice for that level of plane is economic, don’t do that; you’ll just get frustrated and bored, and your dispatch rate will suck.
Retracts? Just train for them, and train well. Once you will have “unlearned” your current landing checklist and replaced it by one that includes the landing gear extension, it will be second nature. Fly a good number of times with someone else (an instructor with good retract experience, or even another pilot whose SOLE MISSION ON THAT FLIGHT is to tell you “CHECK GEAR” on short final, hang a paper in front of them with these words) and then you’ll be, I would think, OK. Have a “short final” checklist made entirely out of memory items; some use GUMPS, I was taught (and) use “red blue green flaps” (very easy to remember for me, because RGB are the basic colours for additive mixing, the ones that make up the pixels of one’s screen; red lever is mixture, blue lever is the prop pitch, green light is the gear down-and-locked, flaps is self-explanatory). Always recite it on short final. Always. Especially when the circuit was non-standard, you are tired, you are stressed, …
High power? Again, take a good instructor, fly with him/her for some time.
My environment of pilot friends, is full of people with “jumped to TB20/Mooney/… after PPL”, but very little of “carefully climbed the ladder, changing planes 3 or 5 times until I got there”. (Unless the TB20/Mooney/… kind of plane was an intermediate step to a PA46/PC12/TBM/Phenom/Citation kind of plane.)
Your first priorities in the choice should be to take a plane that makes sense, economically and operationally. Plan for a
Buy an Arrow if you want one. There is absolutely no problem going to an Arrow or similar straight out of flight school. With the right mindset and extra training you will be absolutely fine, stick to the checklist.
My contribution to this great discussion is this which details the decisions to buy the TB20.
It turned out to be an excellent decision which gave me a high-uptime aircraft which could go anywhere in Europe with ease, VFR and later IFR. VFR needs good performance too, if you want to cross the Alps and other “hills” safely.
I bought it at around 120hrs TT, about 50hrs post-PPL. And yes people tried to put me off – mostly instructors who wanted me to carry on hiring their wreckage. But in general nobody around the airfield scene knew anything useful, anyway. The forums were (and those still around, remain) places to get beaten up, dominated by a small group of high volume posters which keep telling you [type x] is the best one for you. “Airfield/aeroclub scenery” tends to be inward-looking and the advice tends to be to keep doing what we are doing, and “this is the best for you, young man” 
Ownership does have challenges and the above writeup details those I came across. You must sort out the “ground situation” otherwise it will drive you crazy. It is actually very similar to women and their horses; they get the same hassles with the farmer messing about with the fence, passers-by feeding the horse Mars bars, other horses kicking it, etc.
Certified retractables are easy to fly. You just have to go about it differently, and think ahead. A lot more flying “by the numbers”. That’s the difference between 90kt and 150kt.
The “extra cost of maintenance” is a myth. It is negligible – provided that the plane is looked after, and you keep away from “mud”. If you want to fly to “mud” all the time, get a C182 But if you want to fly to “mud” all the time you will also get occassional damage, and prop strikes, because the whole point of grass runways is that they don’t have to be looked after
The Arrow has been mentioned. Beware – because it is the cheapest retractable and thus attracts owners who have €x and not a penny more. Accordingly, a high % of them are in a poor condition. Well, you have to do a good prebuy anyway. Nearly all the cases of maintenance surprises are due to a poor prebuy. Choose somebody who knows the type, not somebody who posts a lot on a forum We had a guy here, years ago, who was doing lousy prebuys…
I went straight from my PPL to a mooney m20J and actually found it easier to fly than the cessna 152(not easier to land of course) – the cessna with a fixed prop and prehistoric aerodynamics was frankly uncomfortable, unstable,underpowered and a misery – nothing worse than the controller asking you to get a move on while on base.
The mooney – for the first 10 hours I did very large circuits and took my time setting myself up for landing, other than that it was smooth and easy, and I thnk the same applies to any retractable.
If you goal is to do short hops, grass strips with perhaps a once a year big trip(>400nm) and perhaps do more training a cessna 172 or a piper archer are perfect, and you will easily sell them on of you want to move up.
Get the plane you want for the mission you want – do not be put off by training schools – most of which are populated by FIs’ who are accumulating hours to make the big leap to ryanair and have no real sympathy for private pilots.
I have a problem with buying a plane based on a mission. My mission changes every year, so my preference, when next I come to buy a plane will be to buy something that I really enjoy flying.
There are probably some missions which I will not be able to do and will have to hire, there are some missions which.might take a little longer to do. But to have a plane which I enjoy pulling out of the hangar and going flying early morning or when the sun is setting. To pop to a restaurant a couple of hundred kilometres away, and enjoy the trip or just to drop in to one of the local islands. But then again I usually fly alone or with one or 2 others. In the humble Robin 420 I can go to Spain in 2hrs or the Channel Islands in the same time. After 40 years it does not take much to look like new again and maintenance is not expensive and easy to find.
That is not to say that if I had the missions that @eddsPeter or @Peter enjoy on a regular basis that I too might look at a Bonanza or TB20. IMO both super planes.
Peter wrote:
The “extra cost of maintenance” is a myth.
This depends highly upon how you do it and whom you have to ask questions. And who does the maintenance stuff.
The annual for a retrac and/or turbo is, to all what I’ve read, at least one AU more expensive, typically a lot more. The variable pitch prop is more expensive in overhaul. If there is an AD or regular check interval on the retractable gear, it has to be done and this adds costs which otherwise would not be present if one would fly a simple aircraft. It is not negligible.
To put in my example again: I am doing the annual, so checking the turbo and the retrac system just costs me some hours more. And it is interesting stuff, doing it with my eldest son who is all excited about it. So it doesn’t hurt at all.
Lot’s of good advice. I echo the suggestions to not hesitate. Just do proper training, maintenance and keep current, as with any plane. Sticking to only fly the Arrow will soon get you familiar. I co-own a newer Arrow (everything is relative!), please ask anything, send a PM if any questions
