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Is ownership worth it?

dutch_flyer wrote:

But I certainly would have preferred to buy one ready-made.

Frankly – I don’t think that exists, unless buying factory new with a warranty.

He said that the typical Saratoga that comes to them to be sold has 15-25K USD squawks on it – and these are mostly expensive planes, owned by expensive people.

I can 100% believe that, but there is not much of a connection between how rich somebody is and how well they maintain their plane. You get loads of guys with a £100k Aston Martin who flies a shagged out old heap. And that is assuming the maint company spots the stuff which needs doing; most of them won’t, partly because they are used to nod and wink work for local PPL schools who mostly just want a legally flyable plane. The one thing rich people tend to do consistently is they buy bigger and faster planes (high capital cost) and the “service ecosystem” which has grown up around those is perfectly geared to optimising the fund extraction process (look in your local TBM/KA maint facility)

it would be interesting to speculate what you would find in a typical TB20. Not a beater, but something that looked like it was correctly maintained by an typical mechanic at a typical shop, owned by a typical owner. Lets say the airplane was 20 years old, always hangared, all ADs done. With what you know about TB20s, what would it take to bring it up to your standards? And what percentage of TB20s would be at your standard to start with?

Not sure what one would find on average but I could tell you in 5 mins if it was maintained by a good shop. Look at the landing gear door linkages, the prop rpm control linkage end, and a few other bits, and if you see no grease, or worse, then you are prob90 looking at quite a lot of work. A good GT (year 2000+, S/N 2000+) may well be in a really good general condition especially if low hours, even if poorly lubed. The early, ~1984, models struggle to be found in a good condition, though some are following the repeated application of a lot of money on replacing airframe parts. This is also relevant with regard to spar corrosion risk; look at the airframe serial numbers. The biggest issues with any metal plane is worn / damaged airframe parts (which have no PMA etc sources and are costly irrespective of brand, and somewhat more so with Socata), and corrosion. On an always-hangared GT corrosion should not be an issue. You need to do a prebuy with a long flexible endoscope to look for HS and VS corrosion – see here. Other than that, a TB is a simple plane, easy to work on. Firewall forward is mostly American parts. I recommend reading my writeup for details like whether you have teflon hoses; this is one of the daft things where most maint companies just buy from Socata and spend a few k, when a hose shop like Saywells (Worthing, UK) can make them up for far less.

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

Regarding old vs. new: people who buy new (or almost new) aircraft are sometimes looked upon as “unclever” on forums like this one. People say “you can buy on old one of these for a fraction of the cost, but the same capability”, or “for the same money, you could buy a 40 year old, but much more capable type of airplane”.

Fact is: people like Peter, me and a few others (who bought new aircraft) and maintain them well really get to enjoy ownership. We just fly and fly and fly. Dozens of trips across Europe, without hardly a problem, a cancellation, a delay or anything. And that is what counts. So these people certainly aren’t stupid.

With these 50 year old airplanes, which you just buy off the market, you just cannot expect that. It’s an antique dinosaur. If you bought a 50 year old car, which has gone through various hands, and spent the last few years somewhere in the east of Europe, you wouldn’t expect anything but a project either.

Of course, many people just don’t have the money to buy a new or almost new aircraft and that is understood. But don’t fail to see the advantages when life is short.

Mainz (EDFZ) & Egelsbach (EDFE), Germany

I bought my current plane 3 years ago and have not regretted it. An huge part of the rent vs purchase decision is the rental situation. The local ATO basically rented only for A2A flights,and was not cheap- 260 per hour for C172. My local club had Wilgas (not for joyrides) and 220hp Morane that was grounded,(and still is) slowly being repaired. Also, we had some inexpensive planes rented from Latvia (C172, Yak, different each year). While the latvian planes might theoretically be available for a few days or a week, all had some issues- for example all lacked the 8.33 radio.. So I decided to buy my own. I have to start looking at the minimum viable product, as I’m not very good at collecting money and there are no sensible loans for aircraft purchasing in Estonia,certainly not for the lower end. So I set price target at ca 20-25K ,which 3 years ago included a lot of planes. I also looked at Robins, Moranes etc, but didn’t really risk with an relatively exotic type. I ended up with a 20K Cherokee 140 from denmark. The hours could be a little lower – it had 8500, engine was 1000h SMOH but out of calendar, which didn’t worry me too much. I got to fly it about 70hours before the annual, no big surprises. I think first year the main investment was 8.33 radio, mogas STC, and fixing the leaking landing gear + some minor bits and pieces .. About 2000 for annual + cost of the radio, 4.5K total. Next year I happily flew 100hrs,including trip to Prague, but then got some nasty surprises .Wingwalk replacement (2k+ 2k for painting the wing), crack in the generator). Also installed Mode-S and fixed USB charger. Total about 6K annual. Last year we managed a trip to Nordkapp. My most expensive annual up to date. The muffler replacement was expected, worst thing was that both MLG cylinders failed inspection – 5K to mr. Piper. Also installed 2xG5 and Trutrak . Total about 25K. I have always planned about 1K per month for flying, so the total cost over years is about as expected. Also, with the current market the value of the plane has at least doubled – was just offered 50K for it,which I initially found interesting, but after quick look at planecheck, decided to decline. My main complaint to about 140 is insufficent payload – well, barely insufficient. I can still visit Estonian islands with my family and take off from 600m grass in a hot day, when keeping close eye on fuel. Those island trips are extremely important usecases.. As replacement with my budget – one 235 pathfinder in Germany,which might or might not be OK mechanically,but definitely needs new AP and GPS for my taste. Another candidate would be a nice cherokee 6, but it also needs avionics upgrade,and will cost close to 90-100K before I’m happy.. So at the end of the day I decided its wise to keep my own plane – most calendar items have already replaced, avionics is as I like, now its time to cosmetic upgrade (i.e repaint it),as I intend to keep it for a long time..

[ formatting fixed; the hyphen was causing the strikeout… if you use a hyphen, make sure it has space(s) around it ]

Last Edited by ivark at 11 May 09:21
EETU, Estonia

I bought a 20 year old aircraft, there was very little wrong with it. No corrosion, engines in good condition with medium range hours. BRNAV plus Garmin 155 linked to a century 3 autopilot, slaved radiocompass, ADF etc
I have an excellent, friendly maintenance company nearby which is not at all expensive. Hangarage was around €1500 per annum.
In fact I have a choice of 3. So all going for me, yes? No!
Not long after purchase, IFR regulations began to change. Investment was needed in mode S, then 8.33. Choice of avionics was limited and expensive because competition really didn’t exist. There was just Garmin. Trig and others were promising products but they weren’t ready when needed. And of course there was the need for one of the engines to be overhauled. The camshaft lobes were worn and the engine developed a vibration. The only other non scheduled maintenance amounted to new tyres, overheated pitot heat system, a janitrol heater problem, and an Autopilot which would stop working for no apparent reason (fortunately after the initial avionics shop closed down, we were able to find a freelance who worked with our maintenance shop. Each time the AP was fixed it would be all singing all dancing, following a route from the Garmin 155, back course ILS, great, until one by one the links dropped out and it would no longer follow the route on Garmin and then it wouldn’t hold a heading, or the aircraft would just keep turning until I hit the red button.And so it was back to the shop. Stripped down etc. Not hugely expensive in the scheme of things but annoying.
With downtime plus the fact that the hangar was a 1hr drive away I got to a stage where I just couldn’t be bothered and the aircraft began to be used for less than 100 hours a year. And Avgas prices started to rise dramatically.
Average annual costs all inclusive over a 5 year period were around €22,000 pa and divided up into the hours I was flying, I could rent an aircraft with similar performance but much more modern, including G1000 for around the same price per hour.
The difficulties of renting what you want when you want it and for the period you want it have well been described in earlier posts. None of the aircraft I have rented have been “shagged out” as @ Peter puts it. All aircraft have been well kept, well maintained, and well equipped.
So would I own again. Yes, if I could find the right aircraft at a cost I could justify spending at my age.
“Once you’ve flown a twin, you never want to go back to a single” is what several on here have said, and I totally agree.
I really enjoy flying twin engine aircraft, the feel, the sound, there’s just something about it. But do I really need one. Flying to and from Corsica to Marseille or Dinard to Exeter were the 2 longest stretches across water where I appreciated most having 2 engines, but how often am I likely to do that as I get older. If I buy an old twin the cost to get it to where I would be comfortable to fly it, well who knows what that could be, (overhauling an engine on a Seneca is around €60,000 these days, all in) and as the OP has written, what about the downtime, it is very possible that I would never get it right before age, infirmity, or death forces me to quit flying. Buying something more modern like a DA42 or Tecnam 2006 might alleviate some of those problems, but can I justify to myself, let alone the wife in spending 1/4 to 1/2 million euros on a hobby. And even then it might well not be future proof. Early G1000 appear to not be the easiest upgrade to WAAS as a example.
Dyn Aeros TwinR showed promise, until the company went broke, and the aircraft quietly disappeared. So that leaves one twin engine aircraft that I have thought to buy, The Cri Cri. Disadvantages are that it is a single seater with not very much in the way of range and you can not fly one IFR and I prefer IFR for X country flights.
The single seat is not a problem as I find myself flying alone more often than not. The range could be a problem, because even though it can get in and out of the small fields and altiports dotted around France (see SpeedJojo You Tube videos) where on earth would I find a ready supply of 2 stroke.
The advantages are that they are cheap to buy, run and maintain. In France they can be registered as a ULM I believe, so no need for annual or biennial check flights, no need for annuals or maintenance plans. No medicals needed. No time or calendar limited parts. You don’t even need a log book.
On top of all that they are great fun to fly and for more fun but less range you can bung on a couple of jet engines or if it’s the silence of glider flying you want, fit a couple of electric motors. After all that fun flying at the end of the day you just stick it on a trailer, take it home and stick it in the garage.
So I could satisfy my twin flying penchant but what about my need for IFR?
I find it ridiculous, in this day and age you can put a Rotax 915is engine into a Robin without too much problem, (and has been done by club’s in France) whereas you can’t put Garmin 530W or any other certified avionic equipment you care to name into the same aircraft and fly LPV approaches even if the aircraft had originally been equipped and certified for IFR flight with ILS, DME, VOR and ADF. And even if you could fit the equipment needed or were prepared to jump through all the regulatory hoops it is going to cost more than the aircraft is worth and twice the price of that new Rotax 915is.
I have nothing against regulation per se, in fact I think that some regulation is a good thing. But why does it have to be anti aircraft ownership by being both complex and anti competitive when it comes to avionics and IFR flying?

France

You only live once, and time flies when your the pilot…I am on my third aircraft in 14 years. I started with a motorglider, passed by a mooney and now almost 8 years own my Bonanza I really love flying & owing it and discovering all the nitty gritty stuff. All of them were projects at some point… If you don’t have patients and have the right network to support you don’t go on this road. I will be massively frustrating….The age of the airframe is not the problem. It’s the previous owner TLC which is a major factor. I think peoples focus is too much on (glass) avionics and not enough on the airframe/engine itself. The list of improvements on my Bonanza is long and expensive but all improvements have given me significant operational advantages. I am still at 50% on what a descent Cirrus with De-icing would cost and by far much more sex appeal .. So I am very happy with that… And now there is the Turbo question :-). I dont care thats its old…at the end if the rivets are still holding it together all the rest can be repaired or replaced. I am sure also for the ruddervators some day a solution will pop up…

The last 10 years have been a buyers market, it seems that these times are over… There are still good examples but they come with a price….If you budget 150K you can still find in good condition IFR capable aircraft. BTW anyone has Turbo CR Twinkie for sale…preferably with de-ice props, looking for another (last) project maybe :-) ?

EBST

boscomantico wrote:

So these people certainly aren’t stupid.

It’s never stupid to have money. The thing is, most pilots don’t have the kind of money needed for a factory new aircraft, typically €500k +. Therefore, the very concept of purchasing a €500k + aircraft to assure trouble free ownership is not relevant for 99% of all GA pilots. In 99 of 100 cases one can safely assume that buying factory new is a “stupid” concept for “stupid” people, even though the ones who actually do it, indeed have the money, and consequently are not stupid

Also, most people who want to fly a lot, usually become professional pilots or semi-pro (instructors and so on). Then ownership, or not, becomes irrelevant, or at least a different concept altogether.

The elephant is the circulation
ENVA ENOP ENMO, Norway

LeSving wrote:

The thing is, most pilots don’t have the kind of money needed for a factory new aircraft, typically €500k +

I have actually been thinking: what is the least expensive certified 4 seater that you can buy new? Totally academic questioning from my part, but quite curious.

I now about the 172 ‘killer’ from Vulcanair
https://www.aopa.org/news-and-media/all-news/2017/august/01/vulcanair-single-expected-to-battle-cessna-172
“VULCANAIR SINGLE EXPECTED TO BATTLE CESSNA 172
$260,000 FOUR-SEATER ‘FANTASTIC’ FOR TRAINING MARKET”

Is that how low you can go? Never mind anything else, just 4 seats, new, certified. What else is there?

EHLE, Netherlands

Buying new IFR touring types may solve some maintenance history nightmares but it will bring hangar space nightmares, I doubt one will leave a 500k$ new aircraft parked outside? the closer one gets to an ILS runway hangar space & base services become problematic on availability & may price up to 0.5-1.5AMU per month

The 150k$ old IFR aircraft can be left tie-down outside (if it’s not the case already) as long as they are flown regularly
The 50k$ wood & fabric can be hangared in a grass strip at 1000$/month

I recall the price tag of this new fully IFR capable C172 (G1000nxi) is 400k$, it’s running cost is about 30k$ per year with zero flying hours, it’s based at Orlando International

Last Edited by Ibra at 11 May 10:36
Paris/Essex, France/UK, United Kingdom

@gallois there is a nice oddball two seater MEP the Wing Derringer (only around a dozen around), which might suit your mission.



Oxford (EGTK), United Kingdom
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