MedEwok wrote:
Now I am in the process of switching schools, but I was trying to illustrate that renting has it’s downsides too – and many of them
After 21 years of renting I definitely know it’s no picnic. The school where I got my original PPL, and where I also rented for the next several years, had a terrible maintenance track record. Problem is I didn’t know any better. The plus side is I learned to handle all sorts of failures… Multiple electrical failures at night, cracked exhaust (wife says “is that little card supposed to turn black like that?”), bad mag in IMC, all manner of instrument failures, etc. I’ve used the light gun signals on several occasions, and had an engine failure that was fortunately above an airfield. So knowing exactly who’s done what to the airplane, and keeping it maintained to a high standard are big ownership advantages.
I also know what you mean about availability, especially when it comes to that intersection of my schedule, the aircraft schedule, the weather, and the instructor’s schedule. Add in the condition of the grass field and I had had enough of “club life”!
I have been very lucky on my purchases and believe that being on top of the maintenance is part of the pride of ownership. Condition of airframe is more important than cosmetics.
My Warrior has been in the hangar for some weeks, but this is in part catch up from a previous shop, and getting all, and I mean all inspections, done. The current delay is with the interior upgrade but hopefully done in the next couple of weeks, and then some minor avionics work.
My personal debate is the Warrior is straightforward for an owner to be truly on top of, and understanding the maintenance. A Bonanza is another step up in maintenance knowledge, and expense, and available engineering skills to carry out the maintenance. The universe of good GA engineers is sadly dwindling.
Peter wrote:
This is really sad to read. I do however think that an analysis of what and why would be really useful to others here.
dutch_flyer wrote:
I sure hope it’s not 4 years for me! Please do elaborate if you don’t mind…
I don’t really want to go into too much detail as there are things in there that have since been ironed out but a quick summary:
Got a prebuy done and it came back clear so I went ahead and left it under CAMO with the seller who was a maintenance company. Took ownership in August 2017.
King HSI died in Nov 17. Replaced with G5 which turned out to be a tough install. It was the guy’s first time installing one so took a bit longer than I expected but everything worked well in the end.
Annual was due in Feb ‘18 and local company said ’leave it with me’ regarding approvals to work on it until about a week before it was due and they still didn’t have the approval. Brought it to a small ‘2 man band’ operation who agreed to help out on the understanding that they’re always out the door with work. Turns out the prebuy was useless and the thing was a wreck. Needed lots of airframe and other parts due to corrosion, probably approaching 10k worth. They eventually arrived from the US without 8130-3 forms so they all had to be sent back and re-issued. All of this took until January ‘19 to get sorted with the back and forth with parts, and generally a week or two to get replies and work orders from CAMO.
Got a reasonable run out of it until September ’19 and sold some hours to try and recoup some money from the huge annual bill, which in turn generated more problems. Then when manoeuvring on the grass at home base I taxied over a hidden rabbit hole and dinged the prop. Plenty of corroded bits in the engine meant overhaul on top of shockload was the most economical option. Back and forth with insurance and quotes from engine shops mean overhaul was just started when Covid restrictions kicked in and dragged it out forever, and in the meantime my former home airport has effectively closed as it seems the owner doesn’t want to run it as an airport and is only remaining open due to a contract with the flight school based there.
I have moved to SDMP and am basing it at a new strip of tarmac a bit further from home now with more of a club type atmosphere, so hopeful of getting some relatively headache free utility out of it at last!
As with most things in life – it depends.
In 23 years of flying I have never owned an airplane outright, but until very recently was intimately involved in the running of an equity club with 4, later 5 airplanes, so I guess I have a view of ownership that might differ from those who own their plane, or only share it with a small group.
First off – your experience post acquisition isn’t unique. The best pre-buy in the world misses things, the seller never, ever tells you about every little snag and so on. I know how much we (the club) spent on airplanes that were bought with a totally clean pre-buy. The word eye-watering comes to mind. Paint and avionics you were aware of. The real can o’ worms is the panel. Once you open that Pandora’s box you’re committed – and the avionics shops know it. If at all possible I would avoid an airplane that needs a serious panel upgrade, unless that’s factored into the price. Paint, OTOH, is easy – about 2 months downtime which, with proper planning, can be done in the off-season, i.e. winter. Actually the same goes for the engine, if you’re lucky and have both a paint and an engine shop at the same airport this can be done in one fell swoop.
Anyway, I digress. Back to my first sentence – it depends. I was lucky inasmuch as I always found clubs / FBOs / Schools to rent from where availability and mx were ok. I never had issues taking the airplane(s) away for long cross-country trips. These places, btw, were in Spain, Namibia and the US. In the UK I was lucky and got to fly a friend’s airplane. Also I never, ever, had anything like the experience(s) @ dutch_flyer had! There’s always a compromise, of course, and sometimes things don’t work out. If – and I know that’s a big IF – you can find something like that, then club / FBO flying is fine and a much more economical solution than owning.
Another factor of course is planned utilization. If you want or need to use the airplane for your business as some on this forum do, then you pretty much need to own. If you want to mainly go on local bimbles with, perhaps, one or two longer trips per year, then a club mostly is fine. I would say at anything below 80-100 hrs / year outright ownership makes no sense. Not only financially, but also from a preservation POV – airplanes that don’t get flown rot away.
I would break the hours down roughly like that: <50: club. 50-100: share / syndicate / partner. 100+: own. Again, this is mission and type dependent, but the ballpark is about right I believe. So again: it depends.
And then, of course, is the last ‘it depends’ factor: money. You can fly very cheaply, if you’re happy with an old, clapped out C152 with only the most basic panel. On the other end of the SEP spectrum, you can buy a brand-new Cirrus SR22 with all bells and whistles and just leave a blank check on the dash if anything goes wrong. I think the biggest mistake is to try to turn a Ford Fiesta into a Ferrari. I have seen more than one guy try to do just that and ending up spending more money than buying the airplane he wanted in the first place.
It’s really about finding the sweet spot in this matrix of mission/ambition/money.
So is it worth it? I don’t know, but I may soon find out. Won’t say more now, but stay tuned!
dutch_flyer wrote:
I’m really hoping this is just the up front tax of buying an older airplane in need of work. I’d love to hear from other more experienced owners on this topic. Do I need to prepare myself for regular downtime, or is it normal to deal with this in the first year?
It is completely normal, and things will calm down. There will still be an occasional project and long term goal. I’m still working towards my new paint job after 11 years with my current plane, a symptom of wanting to make everything just right before covering it in new paint.
From my perspective two and half months is a blink of an eye compared with the time scale on which owning and caring for a plane occurs. Enjoy the ride. Owning a plane, improving it and maintaining it can be a lot of fun, the process and the growing understanding of your plane being a source of pride as much as the end result.
You’re experiencing a very common thing and it’s completely normal. Three things are happening right now:
Aircraft has most likely been sitting before you bought it, so will shed.
You are eager to improve things.
You’re tolerance of malfunctions are lower.
All these three confluence into the experiences you’re having right now. It will settle down. It always takes a few months or a year to shake the gremlins out.
However, if I can give new potential owners some advice (after 11 years of hard-earned experience), it is don’t buy flying restorations or aircraft that need a lot of improving unless you enjoy that specific part of it. If you want to fly, then it’s a bad option. It can be very exciting to be able to get an aircraft for money you can afford and make it your own, but you only have so many years of flying in you: either family/finances will dictate that, or your health. If you want to fly, it’s better to take a loan out on the best aircraft you can afford and just fly it, rather than piecemeal make it into something you want. Because what’s gonna happen is that objectives and desires change. In the end, it’s the cheaper option. And it gets you in the air.
@AdamFrisch this is why Cirrus has been a success. 180KTAS and BMW style interior and glass cockpit and parachute in a simple to maintain service high end luxury car philosophy.
Unfortunately cabin class pressurisation aircraft were designed for medium corporate flight departments in the 1960’s with full time crew and aircraft managers (sometimes the flight crew also overseeing maintenance management) – emphasis on full time. They are wonderful pieces of engineering and a privilege to fly, but require very hands on supervision.
@zuutroy in these simple aircraft getting one with sound bones (aka no corrosion no damage history clean airframe ) is worth paying a premium for. In Europe a lot of GA lives month after month in inclement weather outside, and finding good examples that have been hangared and well looked after is not easy.
Syndicates can work. I was in one that worked for 28 years.Then death and serious illness hit too many.
Syndicates can be a disaster. The new one which I joined at formation was that. But we had a good plane, with few unexpected faults, and I bought two guys out.
The prebuy is best done by whoever will do the first annual
The longest time down was stripping and repainting, which we knew was needed before buying.
The second longest time down was (is?) due to Covid-19, which was not predicted. I still got some flying when renters were grounded. But upgrades are delayed.
To the OP -
You bought an aircraft and then did two pretty deep tasks.
a) Changed Registry
b) Panel Upgrade
Compare this to having bought an aircraft say on N register that didn’t need an upgrade, you’d probably be out flying and not have even thought of the topic. When I sell a first-time buyer an aeroplane I give them a deep discussion on how not to get roasted alive. Half of them listen, the other half don’t and go on to spend a fortune. A common mistake is seeing someone upgrading their first aeroplane extensively. Paint, interior, avionics, speed mods, should only be embodied on aeroplanes with strong dry engines and straight squawk free airframes. Don’t get me started on people who put glass panels in old aeroplanes and leave them outside with no covers on. Invest in Avgas first and foremost.
Enjoy your TB10. I brought one back from the dead a few years ago. They are simple, well made and easy to work on.
I’ve owned my plane for nearly 20 years (and I hope that eventually it shows up in France!). If I could wave a magic wand and make the decision again now, it would depend heavily on what’s available for rental. At Palo Alto, where I was based in the US, there was superb fleet of recent, modern, G1000 equipped 182s. Given those, you’d be nuts to buy unless you’re doing well over 100hrs/year. But that’s a very exceptional case. Usually, the rental aircraft available are clapped out, 20+ year old planes with antediluvian avionics. Fine for a quick joyride, as long as your pax don’t notice the paintwork or the shabby interior. Not really up to serious travelling and forget IFR.
Owning a plane is a big commitment and it is expensive. Nothing to be done about that. And there are inevitably frustrating periods of downtime. Mine spent more time in the mx hangar than not in the two years before I left the US. First some mx-induced damage, then a paperwork screwup on my part, then an annual that revealed a damaged elevator… Otoh… everything Peter said.
There’s a tremendous feeling of comfort when you know the plane like the back of your hand, you’re comfortable with everything, and you get to decide what’s important and what isn’t as far as upgrades are concerned. In 20 years mine has had new paint, new interior, engine overhaul, many avionics upgrades… probably around $150K in total, plus normal mx.
